Re: I Propose... (R.E. Elites)

by Kohuda Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:00 am

ACwazHere wrote:

[LAERG POAST]

I'm just glad you respect me that much ac. ;_; You're a true bro

by rabid squirrel Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:52 am

Few quick points:

1. Off Topic has always been highly active. That doesn't mean we make it bigger, move it up, make it more obvious, etc. That's how forums die.

2. This forum is about Line Rider, and always will be as long as I'm around.

3. Elites do get demoted, both for misbehavior and inactivity. It just hasn't happened for a while (because we have great elites)

4. I try to make sure that nobody will ever fail to be promoted simply because we already have lots of elites.

5. Elite will never be a fluid rank. You need to be a great member for a long time to be an elite. Quick to gain, quick to lose - sounds like power rider to me. Sorry, no. It's pretty obvious why you're suggesting this, and you can forget it

----------

I do have some conflicted thoughts about this though - many of our elites post in the elite lounge, and little elsewhere. We in echelon have become a great sort of group of friends though that I really can't bring myself to say "hey Absox, you've only posted in echelon, so I'm demoting you". I actually did give warnings to ktk and absox a while back, and they tried posting in the forum for a while, and then slid back into echelon again.

I've decided that demoting elites for lack of contribution, when they are still relatively active just only in echelon, is just plain unconstructive. How would it make our community more active in any way? It's not like if we demote them we'll have to promote new elites, or that we need to somehow make space for new elites.

Another point - if we go by your logic that people have to be active site contributors to be elite/staff, we would have two admins and maybe two elites total in all ranks that aren't LCC/LRL/Retired Staff. As AC said, the ranks aren't about contribution (largely because we don't need contribution much anymore, we're doing just fine) they're just about members whom we trust and whom we think set a good example for others.

Reading this thread, I thought about having an "ex-elite" rank that was invisible - they would appear grey but could access echelon. But then I read Hedge's post and now I'm back to indifferent.

One final thing - this subject isn't new at all, and I'd be surprised if you could come up with one that is. The site hasn't changed very much in the last 2 years because I've got arranged in a way I'm pretty happy with.

by Sssschiller Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:02 am

I didn't read all the posts, I don't have enough time at the moment Sad

. I think permanent ranks aren't really usefull. But I think old members won't come back here if they couldn't post in the echelon, because they are demoted

by WishLine Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:46 am

I'm going to do the colour response thing, and hope it doesn't look too divisive and confrontational!

rabid squirrel wrote:Few quick points:

1. Off Topic has always been highly active. That doesn't mean we make it bigger, move it up, make it more obvious, etc. That's how forums die.

2. This forum is about Line Rider, and always will be as long as I'm around.

This is really good. It's We Ride The Lines, not We Ride Whatever the #@~? we want to talk about on any given day.

3. Elites do get demoted, both for misbehavior and inactivity. It just hasn't happened for a while (because we have great elites)

I agree the Elites are great people, just the average members doesn't get to see much of them.

4. I try to make sure that nobody will ever fail to be promoted simply because we already have lots of elites.

Good!

5. Elite will never be a fluid rank. You need to be a great member for a long time to be an elite. Quick to gain, quick to lose - sounds like power rider to me. Sorry, no. It's pretty obvious why you're suggesting this, and you can forget it

Oi! I resent that .

----------

I do have some conflicted thoughts about this though - many of our elites post in the elite lounge, and little elsewhere. We in echelon have become a great sort of group of friends though that I really can't bring myself to say "hey Absox, you've only posted in echelon, so I'm demoting you". I actually did give warnings to ktk and absox a while back, and they tried posting in the forum for a while, and then slid back into echelon again.

Only you staff members can do something about this...you're an admin. Shouldn't you be really pushing this?

I've decided that demoting elites for lack of contribution, when they are still relatively active just only in echelon, is just plain unconstructive. How would it make our community more active in any way? It's not like if we demote them we'll have to promote new elites, or that we need to somehow make space for new elites.

Perhaps if we actually reduced the number of elites the playing field would be more level and incentives to contribute would improve? I don't know...

Another point - if we go by your logic that people have to be active site contributors to be elite/staff, we would have two admins and maybe two elites total in all ranks that aren't LCC/LRL/Retired Staff. As AC said, the ranks aren't about contribution (largely because we don't need contribution much anymore, we're doing just fine) they're just about members whom we trust and whom we think set a good example for others.

You ever seen La Haine? "It's the story of a man who falls from a 50 storey building. On the way down to reassure himself, he repeats 'jusqu'ici, tout va bien', 'jusqu'ici, tout va bien" (roughly, 'all's doing just fine'). I'm also far from convinced that only posting in invisible selective sections constitutes 'good example'. Finally, does it matter if there are fewer ranked members, really? I would have thought that wasn't an issue?

Reading this thread, I thought about having an "ex-elite" rank that was invisible - they would appear grey but could access echelon. But then I read Hedge's post and now I'm back to indifferent.

I actually like that idea! Invisible Eliteness! The colour means you're still making the contributions, but you don't have to kick people you like out of the lounge

One final thing - this subject isn't new at all, and I'd be surprised if you could come up with one that is. The site hasn't changed very much in the last 2 years because I've got arranged in a way I'm pretty happy with

You use the pronoun 'I' a lot Rabid...surely there are two other admins as well? IRtL used to be extensively staff-discussed. Perhaps it still is, but your last sentence doesn't sound like it.

This isn't to say that admins don't have a degree of autonomy. God knows the community owes it to you for keeping it going through all the rubbish that's happened. You've worked harder than anybody else, but wouldn't you agree it's important for it to seem that new plans and ideas are being discussed? You may be happy with it, but our last new member joined last month...what does this suggest about how the site is doing? Perhaps you favour the old ones (you were 'low' vertically on the chart I made), but they're not contributing massively either. Perhaps something has to be done - I mean really shaken up - if you want the community to retain the feel it once had? C'mon, even some current elites agree with me!

by Lankher Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:15 am

ACwazHere wrote:The entire staff could go on vacation at the same time, and we would come back to find everything just as civil as before.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, I'm still here y'know.

by Kohuda Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:57 am

Why should we demote Absox when he's already contributing his part in the echoleon? That would just mean that Absox would leave.

by WishLine Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:12 am

Kohuded wrote:Why should we demote Absox when he's already contributing his part in the echoleon? That would just mean that Absox would leave.

Hi Kohuded Smile

Well, the principle is whatever he (although it's not about individual names or members, really. Sorry, Absox!) is contributing has a positive impact on only about 15 people of Elite-or-higher standing. There is an entire community that the Elites could be serving which they arguably are neglecting in favour of the lounge. The thread looks into ways of encouraging Elites to play a role in adding to the forum as a whole - as well as the lounge, of course.

by **Hedgehogs4Me** Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:02 pm

WishLine wrote:
rabid squirrel wrote:5. Elite will never be a fluid rank. You need to be a great member for a long time to be an elite. Quick to gain, quick to lose - sounds like power rider to me. Sorry, no. It's pretty obvious why you're suggesting this, and you can forget it

Oi! I resemble that .

Fixed. And now that I've done that, the entire thread is going to go to hell, isn't it?

Still worth it.

by WishLine Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:13 pm

Hedgehogs4Me wrote:
WishLine wrote:
rabid squirrel wrote:5. Elite will never be a fluid rank. You need to be a great member for a long time to be an elite. Quick to gain, quick to lose - sounds like power rider to me. Sorry, no. It's pretty obvious why you're suggesting this, and you can forget it

Oi! I resemble that .
Fixed. And now that I've done that, the entire thread is going to go to hell, isn't it?

Still worth it.

Charming, Hedge

.

by Purtle Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:41 pm

I always get to everything after pretty much everything I wanted to say has been said. It's disappointing really. Guess I'll have to think

Spoiler:

Binglinerider wrote:^ That is why he is admin and i'm retired. So much more detail/explanation than mine <3

Yeah wish, im also not really trying to shut you down either. I'm glad you're still pumping out ideas for the site

ACisnub wrote: Wow I'm so sad/sentimental saying all this, lol. I miss it so much

i died a little ;_;

Me too ;_;

Rafael wrote:Cam has his reasons but Absox and Ktk haven't done anything to the forum in a loong time (same goes for Purtle TBH).

I'd disagree, but I don't blame you for seeing it that way (If that makes sense to you).

Lankher wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about that, I'm still here y'know.

We'd just ban you for about a week or so to be safe =p.

I'm not going to address much of your earlier posts wishline because a lot of them have been addressed by ac/bing/etc so I don't feel it's necessary to repeat/say similar things as they did. I'm also way to lazy to do fancy quoting, so here you go.

"Only you staff members can do something about this...you're an admin. Shouldn't you be really pushing this?"
If this was a year ago maybe I would agree, but in my opinion I really don't blame some of the elites for not posting in other sections. They've seen hundreds of hundreds of tracks and I'm sure they really would rather not wash some new tracks when there will be plenty of comments from other people/other newer elites. Also, some of the older elites can't say much about tracks anymore as they are much more complex than when we rode. I know maybe some of the higher ups might not agree with me about this part, but honestly this is how I have felt for quite a while. I can't even watch tracks anymore, and I haven't for a long time.

Even if those things above aren't true, forcing people to post only leads to bad posts. This does not mean the opposite of that would be true, however, it is usually the case for our elites. For example: ktk doesn't post outside elite much, but when he does it's usually quite thought out and well worded.

"Perhaps if we actually reduced the number of elites the playing field would be more level and incentives to contribute would improve? I don't know..."
I don't see how this would make a difference, and even you yourself said that you don't know.

Addressing the rest of the post in general,
I think the word contributing is getting thrown around quite a vast amount without really having a specific meaning and people are thinking about it different ways.
Some are taking the word and seeing contributing = posting. Others see contributing and equate it to constructive posts that improve the community, new ideas, potd or things of that nature. In addition, some other people see contributing = posting, being a general good person/chill.

I would have to say that there really isn't too much "contributing" to be done nowadays. Sure there's opportunities to post on track threads, but most ideas have been thought about/discussed to such length that even an idea that may seem new is actually quite an old idea or just isn't relevant. We've thought of almost everything (almost because there's always a chance!). There isn't enough tracks to be having all sorts of contests/motws/all that other fun stuff.

I remember a lot of people in the past have said that IRTL doesn't like to change, but in reality we have changed a LOT over the years, and it's actually came back to (relatively) what it originally was (depending on what you consider original). So basically don't give me that excuse is what I'm saying.

Eh...I think I'm done.

Spoiler:

hurr durr

by Inukaza Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:22 pm

Also, while I don't think it should be a fluid rank, I still think people who are inactive should be demoted, and there should be some sense of advancement in the site. (not just elite -> staff advancement). That's the disadvantage of losing a rank like power rider. I agree that was the best decision, however, you [censored] over a good amount of normal members. The nomination standpoint became extremely subjective at that point.

by CamQuartr Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Rafael wrote:Cam has his reasons but Absox and Ktk haven't done anything to the forum in a loong time (same goes for Purtle TBH).

yeah, erm, I've been slammed with school work lately, so I apologize for not being as active as I should be.

(I wrote 6 essays for US history in the last 2 weeks, and I'm not even in AP)

by **Opal Rider** Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:39 pm

Sssschiller wrote:I didn't read all the posts, I don't have enough time at the moment . I think permanent ranks aren't really usefull. But I think old members won't come back here if they couldn't post in the echelon, because they are demoted

I'm sorry, but I find this really sad. If someone leaves the site just because they can't post in a certain subsection..... that just seems really fickle to me. It seems like a seriously sore loser move, imo, and if they do leave because they aren't allowed to post there, do they really deserve elite anyways?

by rabid squirrel Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:24 am

Opal Rider wrote:
Sssschiller wrote:I didn't read all the posts, I don't have enough time at the moment . I think permanent ranks aren't really usefull. But I think old members won't come back here if they couldn't post in the echelon, because they are demoted

I'm sorry, but I find this really sad. If someone leaves the site just because they can't post in a certain subsection..... that just seems really fickle to me. It seems like a seriously sore loser move, imo, and if they do leave because they aren't allowed to post there, do they really deserve elite anyways?

that's what's happened to pretty much every elite we've ever demoted, whether for misconduct or inactivity.

by Yobanjojoe Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:43 am

So I used to have a Bolded name.......

by rabid squirrel Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:47 am

on this forum all our names are bold lol

actually, they're not even grey, they're blue

by WishLine Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:52 am

rabid squirrel wrote:on this forum all our names are bold lol

actually, they're not even grey, they're blue

Ha, it's like an old school. Some of the terminology never changes

Also, Cam - I should add. My intention wasn't putting individual elites on trial. I hope you didn't feel that way. Smile

by Inukaza Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:11 am

Oh damn guys, page 2 glitches and redirects to front page. What is this wizardry.

by Wolf_Spirit Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:40 am

Oh wow...
I missed all of this ._.
*reads it all*

by mhenr18 Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:53 am

rabid squirrel wrote:
Opal Rider wrote:
Sssschiller wrote:I didn't read all the posts, I don't have enough time at the moment . I think permanent ranks aren't really usefull. But I think old members won't come back here if they couldn't post in the echelon, because they are demoted

I'm sorry, but I find this really sad. If someone leaves the site just because they can't post in a certain subsection..... that just seems really fickle to me. It seems like a seriously sore loser move, imo, and if they do leave because they aren't allowed to post there, do they really deserve elite anyways?
that's what's happened to pretty much every elite we've ever demoted, whether for misconduct or inactivity.

Well s***, I guess I'm a bit of an outlier then

The echelon wasn't even that interesting, so this kinda confuses me.

ninja edit: I honestly don't care what happens with ranks - I've had the most cocked up time with ranks out of anyone at WRtL that I've really just grown to ignore them (it probably also doesn't help that I clash with rabid a ton, hehe). The current rank situation in terms of what ranks exist is far better than it used to be - kudos to the admins for cleaning that up.

by efrazable Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:05 am

Purtle wrote:
Rafael wrote:Cam has his reasons but Absox and Ktk haven't done anything to the forum in a loong time (same goes for Purtle TBH).

Purtle wrote:Um...bananas?

by RyderLR Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:31 am

Rainbow Dash wrote:
Also, while I don't think it should be a fluid rank, I still think people who are inactive should be demoted, and there should be some sense of advancement in the site. (not just elite -> staff advancement). That's the disadvantage of losing a rank like power rider. I agree that was the best decision, however, you [censored] over a good amount of normal members. The nomination standpoint became extremely subjective at that point.

From seeing where this site is going I too believe we need advancement, but that does not mean demote half of the elite and promote another batch. If there are any demotes in order(or soon to happen) that does not mean that some if any greys (or LCC's) should be promoted. The number of elites should not exceed past what we have now(or around there). If that were the case nearly everyone would be receiving the rank, and that is not what it is for.

I believe that many normal members here now would deserve the rank of a power rider, but the site is just too small atm to bring that rank back. Even though the rank is gone, nothing changes, you just don't have a pukish color for a name. The way I see it is that even though some members are grey they act like power riders.... As in there are greys that are viewed by the elite and staff as power riders a.k.a. the ones close to nomination for elite. Therefore the power rider rank is useless, some greys are the "power riders" without the ugly color (imo). So really there is just one missing stepping stone from grey to elite, but some greys can jump rather far, and skip a stepping stone, while others are stuck at stage 1.

mhenr18 wrote:The current rank situation in terms of what ranks exist is far better than it used to be - kudos to the admins for cleaning that up.

The staff has done a good job of fixing the ranks, while back then we did have more ranks due to the fact we had a lot more people.
The ranks make sense now, and aren't just handed out like candy to little kids, it is for those who deserve it. On that note, although some may have deserved it in the past does not necessarily mean they deserve it now. Elite should not be taken away right way imo. But over time if they post/show up 1-3 times a month that does not reflect the elite rank properly. People should have to STAY active once they earn the rank, just because earning/deserving the rank doesn't mean you stop doing what you used to, after all that is why they earned the rank.
(mhenr I used your point and extended on it was not arguing with it

)

wow....

by WishLine Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:59 am

Right, okay, I have a little time and I finally feel able to do justice to responding to Purtle's post Smile

. And I even have the patience to 'fancy quote'

"Only you staff members can do something about this...you're an admin. Shouldn't you be really pushing this?"
If this was a year ago maybe I would agree, but in my opinion I really don't blame some of the elites for not posting in other sections. They've seen hundreds of hundreds of tracks and I'm sure they really would rather not wash some new tracks when there will be plenty of comments from other people/other newer elites. Also, some of the older elites can't say much about tracks anymore as they are much more complex than when we rode. I know maybe some of the higher ups might not agree with me about this part, but honestly this is how I have felt for quite a while. I can't even watch tracks anymore, and I haven't for a long time.

Okay, now this is what I really have to ask. What exactly has happened in the last year which made everybody so defeatist? 'If it were a year ago'...fine, yes, things were far easier, but the best way to make things better and busier again is surely to keep doing stuff for the forum, as members - especially elite ones. Otherwise the community just closes in on itself more and more and nobody new would feel welcome. The one thing I don't really accept in what you're saying is that if the Elites are getting so little from posting meaningful stuff on the public board, what does that suggest about their commitment and sense of responsibility to - and most importantly, enjoyment of, the forum? Surely moving them into an ex-elite invisible rank would be by far better for them, if they just aren't getting the same kick out of taking part as they used to. Instead, the colour and the status should go members who are making all the contributions, and enjoying it.

I think the word contributing is getting thrown around quite a vast amount without really having a specific meaning and people are thinking about it different ways.
Some are taking the word and seeing contributing = posting. Others see contributing and equate it to constructive posts that improve the community, new ideas, potd or things of that nature. In addition, some other people see contributing = posting, being a general good person/chill.

Okay, well if we define the word 'contributing' as meeting the criteria on which Elite Riders are picked in the first place, basically - and continuing to sustain that after promotion.

I would have to say that there really isn't too much "contributing" to be done nowadays. Sure there's opportunities to post on track threads, but most ideas have been thought about/discussed to such length that even an idea that may seem new is actually quite an old idea or just isn't relevant. We've thought of almost everything (almost because there's always a chance!). There isn't enough tracks to be having all sorts of contests/motws/all that other fun stuff.

This is more a wider problem. It's the original 'vicious circle'.

"We can't make contests and a fun and active community because we don't make tracks"
"We can't make tracks because we're out of ideas"
"We're out of ideas because new people and new discoveries aren't being made"
"New people and things aren't happening because we don't have a fun and active community".

In fact, it may be more complicated than that. I might do a flowchart or something

A four stage circle. We need to break it. If people contributed - and, coming back to the original point, Elites contributed as much as what got them promoted in the first place - then that might jumpstart WrtL again.

Do you see where I'm going with this as a whole? I think people need to show - maybe re-acquire in some cases - their enthusiasm for the game that brought everybody here and keep plugging away at it until the community gets going again.

by **Conundrumer** Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:04 am

make new line rider
re-acquire enthusiasm

by RyderLR Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:46 am

^Yes, If new features are added, new ways of riding will be created. New styles new opinions will be made. Elites will have another reason to post. It is the waiting game.

but right now we deal with the problems we have now. We have to wait for the future.

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