Kramuals ACTUALLY explained, and why diagonal kramuals are possible

Code:

function satisfyDistance()
    {
        var _loc3 = a.x - b.x;
        var _loc2 = a.y - b.y;
        var _loc7 = Math.sqrt(_loc3 * _loc3 + _loc2 * _loc2);

Code:

var _loc6 = (_loc7 - restLength) / _loc7 * 5.000000E-001;

Code:

var _loc5 = _loc3 * _loc6;
        var _loc4 = _loc2 * _loc6;

Code:

a.x = a.x - _loc5;
        a.y = a.y - _loc4;
        b.x = b.x + _loc5;
        b.y = b.y + _loc4;

Shotoku wrote: if someone has irrefutable proof against my explanation

[senpai] kevans wrote:I never mentioned direction, I explained that they must share the same X or Y coordinates.

rabid squirrel wrote:Question for kevans:
1) "What this function does is basically check the distance between each contact point and tries to move him back to the default distance, not position, distance." Can you explain this better? Move "him" back? "distance, not position"? Why is it moving him "back"?
2) Can you prove that either a) it is impossible for all points to be exactly aligned on a non-XY surface, b) shotoku is interpreting the code to calculate distances between contact points wrong somehow?

Spoiler:

rabid squirrel wrote:Move "him" back? Why is it moving him "back"?

[senpai] kevans wrote:I never said it wasn't impossible to be aligned to a non xy line, I said it wasn't possible to stay "locked" in that position.

Can you prove that... b) alignment of all points on a diagonal will not cause a kramual "lock"?

[senpai] kevans wrote:2b) Shotoku is thinking that angle is somewhere involved in this positioning calculation, when it's not.

rabid squirrel wrote:

rabid squirrel wrote:Move "him" back? Why is it moving him "back"?

You didn't answer these.

[senpai] kevans wrote:I never said it wasn't impossible to be aligned to a non xy line, I said it wasn't possible to stay "locked" in that position.

I edited my post, didn'ty quite catch you in time:

Can you prove that... b) alignment of all points on a diagonal will not cause a kramual "lock"?

like, more concretely than pointing at the zeroes and saying it's the only way?

math stuff:

[senpai] kevans wrote:2b) Shotoku is thinking that angle is somewhere involved in this positioning calculation, when it's not.

not sure you totally understand shotoku's reasoning here. shotoku is only talking about changing distances between points when the angle happens to be the same (which is also true in your scenario as well as his)

Spoiler:

I was falling asleep and then realized

kevan wrote:At the end of the function, point A goes from (5, 10) to (15, 30), and point B goes from (7, 14) to (-3, -4). You can keep doing this indefinitely and it'll keep adjusting itself until both points are 5 (_loc6) pixels apart

that in this you can see that the the angle didn't actually change, so shotoku's postulate actually holds here. (and thus his conclusion that diagonal kramuals are possible in theory)

and then I saw that shotoku posted that exact thing.

So I was wrong, shotoku actually seems to be right here. again, as far as I can see. (and only in theory at this point)

Shotoku, have you tried monitoring the values step by step in some kind of debug process while trying to make a diagonal kramual? My thought is we can see the actual variables then, and see if anyone them should make a diagonal kramual - and if not, why it's impossible to get them into diagonal kramual position.

One way we could resolve this is actually simulate this situation and literally force all of the contact points into shotoku's scenario in actual code and then see how bosh behaves. Shotoku, any thoughts about doing that?

I feel like there must be a reason that diagonal kramuals are seemingly impossible (otherwise I'm sure they would have been discovered years ago) but I think shotoku is right here in his theory (aka I don't think kevans has effectively proved him wrong even though I thought he did for a couple hours lol)

kevan wrote:point A goes from (5, 10) to (15, 30), and point B goes from (7, 14) to (-3, -4)

:15 AM shotoku ban: maybe, just maybe, it has to do with the actual collision with the line
2:17 AM shotoku ban: I can get Bosh and the sled to go into kramual positions separately
2:18 AM shotoku ban: but not while staying together with the sled
2:18 AM rabidsquirrel mod: Ohhh hmmmm
2:19 AM shotoku ban: In a regular kramual, if you delete the line that Bosh's on, he stays in position
2:19 AM shotoku ban: but if you delete them while in diagonal separated, they pop out of alignment

Shotoku wrote:You were on the right track, but didn't take into consideration the big picture.

Code:

edges[21] = new RepellStick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[8]);
edges[22] = new RepellStick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[9]);

Code:

function satisfyDistance()
    {
        var _loc3 = a.x - b.x;
        var _loc2 = a.y - b.y;
        var _loc4 = Math.sqrt(_loc3 * _loc3 + _loc2 * _loc2);
        if (_loc4 < restLength)
        {
            var _loc7 = (_loc4 - restLength) / _loc4 * 5.000000E-001;
            var _loc6 = _loc3 * _loc7;
            var _loc5 = _loc2 * _loc7;
            a.x = a.x - _loc6;
            a.y = a.y - _loc5;
            b.x = b.x + _loc6;
            b.y = b.y + _loc5;
        } // end if
    } // End of the function

Code:

edges[0] = new Stick(riderAnchors[0], riderAnchors[1]);
    edges[1] = new Stick(riderAnchors[1], riderAnchors[2]);
    edges[2] = new Stick(riderAnchors[2], riderAnchors[3]);
    edges[3] = new Stick(riderAnchors[3], riderAnchors[0]);
    edges[4] = new Stick(riderAnchors[0], riderAnchors[2]);
    edges[5] = new Stick(riderAnchors[3], riderAnchors[1]);
    edges[6] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[0], riderAnchors[4], ENDURANCE);
    edges[8] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[1], riderAnchors[4], ENDURANCE);
    edges[9] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[2], riderAnchors[4], ENDURANCE);
    edges[10] = new Stick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[4]);
    edges[11] = new Stick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[6]);
    edges[12] = new Stick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[7]);
    edges[13] = new Stick(riderAnchors[4], riderAnchors[8]);
    edges[14] = new Stick(riderAnchors[4], riderAnchors[9]);
    edges[15] = new Stick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[7]);
    edges[16] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[0], ENDURANCE);
    edges[17] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[3], riderAnchors[6], ENDURANCE);
    edges[18] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[3], riderAnchors[7], ENDURANCE);
    edges[19] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[8], riderAnchors[2], ENDURANCE);
    edges[20] = new BindStick(riderAnchors[9], riderAnchors[2], ENDURANCE);
    edges[21] = new RepellStick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[8]);
    edges[22] = new RepellStick(riderAnchors[5], riderAnchors[9]);


Inukaza wrote:

Conundrumer wrote:Kevans, I believe you can literally hardcode bosh's starting position to be in kramual position by forcefully setting the positions of the contact points after initialization. First, attempt to hardcode a horizontal kramual. And then try rotating all the points by 45°.

rabid squirrel wrote:I think I'm with kevans here, unless someone can do this:

Conundrumer wrote:Kevans, I believe you can literally hardcode bosh's starting position to be in kramual position by forcefully setting the positions of the contact points after initialization. First, attempt to hardcode a horizontal kramual. And then try rotating all the points by 45°.

and simulate a 45degree kramual and show that it actually works. Or that it doesn't, which would sort of seal the deal.

Dapianokid wrote:
Now there needs to be a time based definintion.

[senpai] kevans wrote:

Dapianokid wrote:
Now there needs to be a time based definintion.

Well if you've noticed, we already do. We've already dubbed kramuals that last for one frame as "Single Frame". So by this reasoning, a "kramual" would be where he's able to hold this position indefinitely.

As for what Kramwoods has here, if he's willing to share the sol, I'd be willing to do the deep digging to see how "aligned" the contact points are.

lol: