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Let's talk about aspect rations!
by rabid squirrel Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:29 pm
Here's some conversation we had on the livestream and I thought it would be worth making a thread about. What are your thoughts on my opinion that scenery should be recorded in 4:3?
EDIT:
Here's the gist of it:
EDIT:
Here's the gist of it:
Full convo:4:05 PM mhenr18: rabid, why would you want to export 4:3
4:05 PM conundrumer: because art
4:05 PM conundrumer: which is a valid point
4:05 PM mhenr18: is it because you want to do as little sceneing as possible and 4:3 lets you crop less off?
4:06 PM mhenr18: *more off
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: it's because it looks better
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: you can more effectively create a 2D environment in line rider when the screen is more square
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: the reason people use widescreen is because as humans most of our motion is horizontal
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: but that's a film thing, not a line rider thing
4:07 PM conundrumer: rabid you may be onto something, actually
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: hisa movement is just as vertical as it is horizontal
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: so it's annoying as a scener when you can't see stuff above Bosh, but you can see for miles off to his right
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: you want to have more or less equal distance from the edge of the screen sicne he's always in the center
- Spoiler:
- 3:43 PM mhenr18: I refuse to export any other sizes - video is 16:9 and fuck anyone who doesn't use that + standard resolutions
3:44 PM rabidsquirrel: it's annoying for scening imvho
3:44 PM rabidsquirrel: I like 4:3 but w/e
3:44 PM mhenr18: as for color we had a rather heated discussion about it that took up like a zillion pages of the discussion thread
3:45 PM rabidsquirrel: lol
3:45 PM mhenr18: this isn't the 90's lol
3:45 PM Kevansevans: kimamakemod
3:45 PM rabidsquirrel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceQip5Cwrpw 4:3
3:45 PM mhenr18: I wasn't going to allow it but you'll be able to export it if you hold alt and click export
3:45 PM rabidsquirrel: would have been awkward in 16:9
3:45 PM mhenr18: why?
3:45 PM Kevansevans: really... it's hidden in? that's a cop out Mhenr
3:45 PM rabidsquirrel: so much space in the parts off to the left and right of the stage
3:46 PM mhenr18: well, work harder at scening and use the frame view to get guides as to where you need to scene to fill a 16:9 frame at whatever zoom
3:46 PM conundrumer: speaking of which
3:46 PM mhenr18: I'd rather see whitespace than black bars anyway
3:46 PM conundrumer: shouldn't the youtube embed default to 16:9 by default
3:47 PM conundrumer: on the forums
3:47 PM rabidsquirrel: color's not a matter of preference on what you think people should do, it's like, a thing most people do so they will be sad if you take it away
3:47 PM mhenr18: I just said you can hold alt and export with editor colors
3:47 PM rabidsquirrel: yeah I know
3:48 PM Kevansevans: but the fact that it's hidden... that's lame. of course color play was originally hidden, but now it doesn't have to be
3:48 PM mhenr18: I usually soften on issues anyway so I might add a checkbox at some later point
3:48 PM conundrumer: there's also the option of making it an external addon/mod, since this isn't being made solely for the community
3:48 PM conundrumer: *current community
3:48 PM rabidsquirrel: as for the whitespace argument ... I can tell you've never scened. you don't just stop scening off to the side and say "good enough" because it looks like crap
3:49 PM rabidsquirrel: you're creating an environment
3:49 PM rabidsquirrel: is there a reason you can't have a custom size export?
3:49 PM mhenr18: because I refuse to export in 4:3
3:49 PM conundrumer: would the same argument work for recording cinematic videos?
3:49 PM mhenr18: and I *know* that backwards people are going to abuse that to export in nonstandard sizes that are good for nobody
3:50 PM conundrumer: 4:3 is outdated, youtube doesn't like 4:3 anymore
3:50 PM rabidsquirrel: mhenr, I think you mean "not to my liking"
3:50 PM rabidsquirrel: not "good for nobody"
3:50 PM Kevansevans: that doesn't mean it can't be used for art aspects
3:50 PM rabidsquirrel: ty kevans
3:50 PM conundrumer: again, if people insist, it could be an external addon/mod
3:50 PM mhenr18: rabid, every single TV and monitor uses 16:9 or 16:10
3:50 PM rabidsquirrel: and lr is...... wait for it....
3:50 PM rabidsquirrel: you know what I'm gonna say
3:50 PM Kevansevans: it it looks better at 4:3, then it looks better 4:3 and the creator has the right to mkae it that way
3:51 PM conundrumer: rather than cluttering the UI with legacy options
3:51 PM mhenr18: then they can jump through hoops to do it
3:51 PM Kevansevans: *if it
3:51 PM rabidsquirrel: how?
3:51 PM mhenr18: and rabid, my builds default to a 16:9 window size
3:51 PM mhenr18: if thats what you were about to say
3:51 PM rabidsquirrel: how @ jump through hoops?
3:51 PM rabidsquirrel: crop? that cuts off the speedometer & etc
3:52 PM rabidsquirrel: we have always been able to make the window size anything we want, and there's not reason you can't have a custom size besides "I don't like it and don't want people to use it"
3:53 PM mhenr18: that's because editing a track and watching a video are two different concepts
3:53 PM Kevansevans: Rabid, I'll just make the mod for it like a lot of things Mhenr doesn't want to do
3:53 PM mhenr18: lol you can't mod the UI
3:53 PM conundrumer: the reasoning behind it is more like conforming to standards, rather than personal preference
3:54 PM mhenr18: in-game UI might be moddable, but panels certainly won't be
3:54 PM rabidsquirrel: conforming IS a personal preference
3:54 PM Kevansevans: then what;s the point of mod support if you can't add/remove UI?
3:54 PM rabidsquirrel: some people would rather not conform
3:54 PM rabidsquirrel: and hate being forced to
3:55 PM conundrumer: that's not how technology works, though
3:55 PM Kevansevans: what if I wanted to make a mod that added playback options for ewxporting? Like my "paining" hax? Rotating world? upside down? You're severly cutting off mod potemtial that way
3:55 PM mhenr18: V1 of something is always limited
3:55 PM conundrumer: for the sake of art, non-standard resolutions can be implemented as a mod
3:56 PM mhenr18: or, you could see that I'm not even exporting speed readings at all
3:56 PM mhenr18: at the moment
3:56 PM mhenr18: that will be added as an option
3:56 PM mhenr18: i think I might do this like the OSX save panels are
3:56 PM mhenr18: where there's a damn simple small panel that works for the common use cases
3:56 PM mhenr18: and then you can expand it to get the settings for geeks
3:57 PM conundrumer: when it comes to designing a system, conforming to standards is good style
3:57 PM Kevansevans: just set it up so every little detail can be modded, and then we can be happy with it
3:57 PM heliospavonine: I'm happy with 6.y #hipster
3:57 PM conundrumer: i think it's almost a guarantee that the API will have all these little details available for modding
3:58 PM mhenr18: it's also the fact that I don't want people making my app look unprofessional by using dated video sizes. if every unleashed video is exported at 720p or better and never has shitty black borders
3:58 PM Kevansevans: he just said you can't edit ceertain UI aspects
3:58 PM mhenr18: then I'll be a lot happier
3:58 PM conundrumer: he certainly hasn't finalized that claim, however
3:58 PM conundrumer: nor specified
3:59 PM rabidsquirrel: the thing is, line rider is not a video editing tool, it's an art making tool. Photoshop doesn't make you conform to sizes
3:59 PM conundrumer: there's no reason to change some aspects of the UI, eg the style of borders
3:59 PM rabidsquirrel: and neither does any video editing software
3:59 PM mhenr18: Premiere does
3:59 PM rabidsquirrel: oh weird
3:59 PM mhenr18: As does FCP
3:59 PM mhenr18: and iMovie
3:59 PM Kevansevans: Mhenr, not everyone that owns a PC/Mac uses premier
4:00 PM Kevansevans: or any of those >.>
4:00 PM conundrumer: are those people professsionals?
4:00 PM rabidsquirrel: FCP doesn't and iMovie doesn't
4:00 PM Kevansevans: I can make a professional movie with WMM if i wanted to
4:00 PM mhenr18: by conform do you mean that it allows old aspect ratios
4:00 PM rabidsquirrel: never used premiere so I wouldn't know that one
4:00 PM mhenr18: and no kevan
4:00 PM mhenr18: you literally can't
4:00 PM rabidsquirrel: no I mean it allows CUSTOM
4:01 PM rabidsquirrel: pure makes pretty awesome videos with WMM hah
4:01 PM conundrumer: you can't make a professional movie if it's not a standard aspect ratio
4:01 PM conundrumer: unless you have artistic license
4:01 PM mhenr18: see, look how crap this current video looks
4:01 PM mhenr18: because it's not using the full frame
4:01 PM Kevansevans: that's the stream Mhenr
4:01 PM rabidsquirrel: that's like saying you can't paint unless you use canvas
4:01 PM conundrumer: painting and canvas don't use digital technology :|
4:02 PM mhenr18: actually conun most movies have varying amounts of widescreen
4:02 PM Kevansevans: and digitaly technology doesn't have to use specific ratios >.>'
4:02 PM conundrumer: oh, well in that case
4:02 PM conundrumer: remember we can always use comic sans :|
4:02 PM mhenr18: from ~1.7 all the way up to 2.1 (and higher is far less common)
4:02 PM rabidsquirrel: conun you just used the "that just the way it is" argument when I'm talking in terms of "should be"
4:03 PM Kevansevans: Hey, I happen to like Comic Sans, so point invalid Conun
4:03 PM TheColdRider: lol comic sans
4:03 PM mhenr18: it doesn't have to, but everything has to get displayed on a screen at some point
4:03 PM conundrumer: your personal preference is not a valid argument
4:03 PM conundrumer: in general, using comic sans reeks of unprofessionalism
4:03 PM heliospavonine: Or not
4:03 PM Kevansevans: for what reason? because of the people who don't know how to use it?
4:04 PM conundrumer: i personally don't have qualms for comic sans
4:04 PM conundrumer: yes
4:04 PM Kevansevans: So I don't know how to use comic sans?
4:04 PM conundrumer: er, qualms against
4:05 PM conundrumer: i don't know, but you're just one guy
4:05 PM mhenr18: ok, lets get back to why we're having this discussion in the first place
4:05 PM mhenr18: rabid, why would you want to export 4:3
4:05 PM conundrumer: because art
4:05 PM conundrumer: which is a valid point
4:05 PM Kevansevans: I was getting to that in that analogy i just formulated
4:05 PM mhenr18: is it because you want to do as little sceneing as possible and 4:3 lets you crop less off?
4:06 PM mhenr18: *more off
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: it's because it looks better
4:06 PM conundrumer: i suppose that's why the aspect ratio of youtube embeds on the forums never chagned to 16:9
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: you can more effectively create a 2D environment in line rider when the screen is more square
4:06 PM mhenr18: because our admin's stuck in the video dark ages ;D
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: the reason people use widescreen is because as humans most of our motion is horizontal
4:07 PM conundrumer: it's vintage
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: but that's a film thing, not a line rider thing
4:07 PM Kevansevans: Scenery just looks better at 4:3 than 16:9
4:07 PM mhenr18: it's more because we have wider than high fields of vision
4:07 PM conundrumer: rabid you may be onto something, actually
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: hisa movement is just as vertical as it is horizontal
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: so it's annoying as a scener when you can't see stuff above Bosh, but you can see for miles off to his right
4:08 PM conundrumer: what if we had a square aspect ratio
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: you want to have more or less equal distance from the edge of the screen sicne he's always in the center
4:08 PM mhenr18: you're acting as if 16:9 is restricting the height of a video
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: 4:3 kinda looks better in the youtube player since the player is 16:9
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: it is, relative to the width
4:09 PM rabidsquirrel: if you raise the height, the width goes out twice as much
4:09 PM rabidsquirrel: more space to fill
4:09 PM Kevansevans: also, at the rate that technology increases, having a custom ratio function would be very usesful, especially when 4k becomes standards, and whatever past trhat starts becoming popular.
4:09 PM mhenr18: it's not though
4:09 PM rabidsquirrel: my comment aboiut the youtube player was @ conun
4:09 PM mhenr18: we always used 16:9 to see *more* than what a 4:3 frame gave us
4:09 PM rabidsquirrel: yeah mhenr you're either just denyiong me or not understanding me
4:09 PM conundrumer: okay, i see
4:10 PM mhenr18: as in, 16:9 uses the exact same height but you get more out to the sides - you can still frame your work for 4:3 but you see more in the shot
4:10 PM rabidsquirrel: "you see more"
4:10 PM conundrumer: rabid's argument is based off how our perception of size is relative
4:10 PM rabidsquirrel: that's if you're filming
4:11 PM rabidsquirrel: if you're scening, that translates to "you have to make more"
4:11 PM conundrumer: the height may be the same, absolutely, but a wider width may make us perceive it to be shorter
4:11 PM mhenr18: which is trivial in unleashed because you have more performance
4:11 PM rabidsquirrel: and nobody really cares about what happens on the edges if it's in 16:9 in line rider
4:12 PM conundrumer: rabid, what are your thoughts on a square aspect ratio
4:12 PM rabidsquirrel: trivial? scening 30% more stuff that nobody will pay attention to is not trivial
4:12 PM Kevansevans: why not a 16:9 export, but a black bar toggle thin that puts it at 4:3 so it still has that nice 1920x1280 resolution, but emulates 4:3?
4:13 PM mhenr18: because that's not 1920x1080 video
4:13 PM rabidsquirrel: conun - if youtube had a custom player aspect ratio I would totally export square
4:13 PM Kevansevans: yes it is, there's just black bars covering both sides
4:13 PM conundrumer: kevan, black bars are what we're trying to avoid
4:13 PM mhenr18: that's 1440x1080 video with useless black to the sizes
4:13 PM mhenr18: that's even worse than 1440x1080 video
4:13 PM rabidsquirrel: althought maybe not
4:13 PM mhenr18: because it will confuse the shit out of a video editor
4:14 PM rabidsquirrel: it might be weird to switch from the traditional 600x800 window to a square thing
4:14 PM Kevansevans: but 4:3 on a 16:9 either stretches the video, or makes those black bars
4:14 PM mhenr18: yes but that's for the video editor to do
4:14 PM Kevansevans: I'd rather go with the black bars so the track doesn't look awkward
4:14 PM rabidsquirrel: but in theory, if line rider was originally square I'm sure we would like it
4:14 PM conundrumer: there will be blackbars if they don't fit, the export doesn't need to add them in
4:15 PM conundrumer: if the video is stretched, the embed is doing it wrong
4:15 PM mhenr18: your editor will do that and will do it more efficiently
4:15 PM mhenr18: than if it were added by the export
4:15 PM conundrumer: i'm starting to agree that a more squarish aspect ratio would look better for line rider videos
4:15 PM rabidsquirrel: the problem with cropping using the ditor
4:15 PM rabidsquirrel: is the speed gets cut off, and the padding on the sides is smaller
4:15 PM rabidsquirrel: and the time gets cut off too
4:16 PM conundrumer: similar to recording a scene with bird eye's perspective
4:16 PM mhenr18: why would you want the time in an export?
4:16 PM rabidsquirrel: TBH, with naked tracks the aspect ration doesn't matter much
4:16 PM mhenr18: unleashed exports real time
4:16 PM rabidsquirrel: because the "you see more" is totally true
4:16 PM rabidsquirrel: so yeah I record naked tracks 16:9
Last edited by rabid squirrel on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
-
Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by Opal Rider Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:40 pm
I don't see why it shouldn't be. Gives more flexibility for the trackmaker. Being able to record the track the way you want is in all honesty a big part of getting the track exactly how you want it, and with it limited on certain things I'd feel like we'd almost be better off doing it on our own. Of course, we couldn't really have EVERY recording feature, now, this is a game, not a recording software, and that would put extra strain on both the game and the game maker. But simple stuff like this, I wouldn't see why not.
Opal Rider- Moderator
- Aestetikally appealing
Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by roflmaoqwerty Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:51 pm
Having the choice between 16:9 and 4:3 doesn't seem too much to ask, and is a boon to those who prefer one style over the other. I don't expect Mhenr to go all Valve and start throwing 16:10 and other crazy shit into it, but the choice between the two accepted norms would be quite appreciated. For sceners, the choice should be theirs. I personally don't care whether a track is recorded one way or the other, regardless of whether or not it's scened.
roflmaoqwerty- Member
- Dreadnips are amazing goddamn
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by rabid squirrel Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:11 pm
to be clear this wasn't meant to be a topic on whether mhenr should include 4:3 in Unleashed, I was more interested in what people had to say about recording scenery in 4:3 versus 16:9...
I sort of realized why I was doing it while I was typing, and was like, whoa that's crazy. Here, I'll post an excerpt that's the point of what I'm interested in people's thoughts on:
EDIT: edited OP
I sort of realized why I was doing it while I was typing, and was like, whoa that's crazy. Here, I'll post an excerpt that's the point of what I'm interested in people's thoughts on:
Just wondering if anyone agrees with me that scenery should be recorded in 4:3, and if not then why4:05 PM mhenr18: rabid, why would you want to export 4:3
4:05 PM conundrumer: because art
4:05 PM conundrumer: which is a valid point
4:05 PM mhenr18: is it because you want to do as little sceneing as possible and 4:3 lets you crop less off?
4:06 PM mhenr18: *more off
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: it's because it looks better
4:06 PM rabidsquirrel: you can more effectively create a 2D environment in line rider when the screen is more square
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: the reason people use widescreen is because as humans most of our motion is horizontal
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: but that's a film thing, not a line rider thing
4:07 PM conundrumer: rabid you may be onto something, actually
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: hisa movement is just as vertical as it is horizontal
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: so it's annoying as a scener when you can't see stuff above Bosh, but you can see for miles off to his right
4:08 PM rabidsquirrel: you want to have more or less equal distance from the edge of the screen sicne he's always in the center
EDIT: edited OP
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by SethComposerGuy Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:14 pm
For me, I prefer 16:9 even for scenery as I use a 16:9 monitor as that is what I primarily use, and I don't like seeing black bands on each side of a video as it feels like part of the scenery is cut out. However, if I were to be using a 4:3 monitor, which I sometimes use when I need the use of 2 monitors, then a scened track recorded in 4:3 would likely look better.
SethComposerGuy- Line Rider Legend
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by gaoyubao Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:35 pm
I like rations, especially in times of war because then you have a stable source of food and also you know that the government is caring and supporting its population. It also helps everyone feel more equal, not like the huge differences in wealth that we have today.
gaoyubao- Line Rider Legend
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by rabid squirrel Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:05 am
har har har har hargaoyubao wrote:I like rations, especially in times of war because then you have a stable source of food and also you know that the government is caring and supporting its population. It also helps everyone feel more equal, not like the huge differences in wealth that we have today.
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by SethComposerGuy Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:27 am
lolgaoyubao wrote:I like rations, especially in times of war because then you have a stable source of food and also you know that the government is caring and supporting its population. It also helps everyone feel more equal, not like the huge differences in wealth that we have today.
SethComposerGuy- Line Rider Legend
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Re: Let's talk about aspect rations!
by StingReay Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:40 am
4:07 PM rabidsquirrel: but that's a film thing, not a line rider thing
I don't think I'd agree here. It's not so much a film thing as it's a video production in general thing. Besides, most have their working resolution at or close to their monitor's native resolution anyway so it makes sense to record 16:9 or 16:10; less effort.
I don't think I'd agree here. It's not so much a film thing as it's a video production in general thing. Besides, most have their working resolution at or close to their monitor's native resolution anyway so it makes sense to record 16:9 or 16:10; less effort.
StingReay- Member
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