Daisies

by **OTDE** Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:09 am

Daisies by Rabid and OTDE

Link for mobile users

Hey guys! Hope you enjoy. Couple things:

Spoiler:

by **Apple** Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:38 am

Oh my gosh, that tail manual was beautiful. The whole thing was beautiful, but that part made me smile stupidly. All of those curves were so smooth, I could really tell that a lot of effort went into them. Especially at the end. You guys did a really good job making the song match the music, not only with syncing but just with the overall feel of it.

by **Conundrumer** Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:45 am

this was wonderfully choreographed, good job guys (:

also I love the repetition towards the end. something to keep experimenting with

by **FlagCapper** Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:42 am

This is a really nice idea and was pretty enjoyable. I think that using gravity to actually let the rider fall is under-utilized and really adds a sort of realism to the track (i.e., as if it's actually a guy on a sled). Especially loved the tail manual at 1:27.

My only real criticism is there was a few bits, especially near the beginning, which felt ever-so-slightly sloppy and kind of went against the spirit of the track. Like at the beginning for instance you would be doing some flat-sled and one of the curves would turn unnecessarily sharply or the rider would land with a "bounce" rather than smoothly glide into the curve. Given that most of the track seemed to place an emphasis on being supersupersmooth these moments feel a bit out of place.

by **Rafael** Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:48 am

To be honest, that was very boring to watch to me. The syncs were painfully predictable throughout. Standard slow-music-slow-flatsled syncing, followed by an extension in tricks used along with the same manner of syncing. The flings felt out of place, and I was really hoping for some kind of climax towards the end, but instead it became slow again and eventually ended. I didn't feel a begin, middle and ending in here. It just felt like one big intro. I also felt like in this track the 'safe' way was chosen. It seemed to me you refrained from adding experimental features in order to maintain a perfect execution.

There were two moments that I liked though, and those were the tailie integration/airtime and the flatsled curves at the end. The way they were shaped and the camera movement gave it a cool effect. At the time I was pretty fed up with the track though, and I skipped through to the end when the curve was repeated more than 4 times.

This is probably just not my type of post-modern track. I guess your ideas were just too slow/simple for me to enjoy, even though they were well executed. What I think would've fit really well in here to vary some more is very weak gwell chains or granuals. 2 cents

by anton Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:12 am

Well this is accesible, I guess, but it feels to me like you got that by sacrificing the enjoyability for the people who actually watch the track, the community. This is how I generally feel about the "accesibility" movement - it feels like throwing away many years of line rider culture. Not because it expands upon the idea of what the medium can express, which I am all for, but because it often feels like OTDE and Rabid, the guys I most often see talking about how tracks are inaccesible, activly advocates against quirk and regards it as something perverse and crude. I don't think this is mean-spirited, I just think it is another way of hurrying the transition from a largly quirk-centered community to something much more cultivated and artsy.

No hostility, just love

This track though;
Does a good job at exploring syncing because it is so simple, yet so effective. The LRJS camera does alot for this track, I love it. Tasteful use of green integration. Repetition is something that defos should be explored more, and I feel this track somewhat broadcasts its potential. Most noteworthy thing about this line rider film is how the track and song work together as opposed to music backing up the track. Feels like the music and track both occupy 50% of the space.

by **Opal Rider** Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:03 am

I can understand why some people are bored with it, if you came into the track with the expectation of being pumped up and excited this would be sure to leave disappointment. That being said, the music (and the syncs created from it), is not a song that is meant to be exciting, or adventurous, or bold, and in a strange sense didn't really have a beginning, middle, or end either.

The lyrics, in their most literal sense, tell of two people going to the movies and picking daisies. Sounds exciting, right? The track exemplifies this amazingly. A peaceful escapade for the boy and his friend (Rabid and OTDE) while the world is "ending" around them (The rest of the trackmaking community).

Like the rest of the comments, the green tail manual was easily my favorite part of the entire thing, but I found all of it very soothing to watch. It felt like the embodiment of home, even if the song nor the track had nothing to do with Home. Possibly the first track I can think of that conveyed emotion.

by rabid squirrel Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:14 pm

me: Well, the track is certainly generating some discussion
Katie: What do you mean?
me: Some people like it, some people don't
Katie: Why would people not like it?
me: They are saying it's boring and slow and anti-quirk
Katie: It's not anti-quirk, it just doesn't have much quirk. It's slow and calming and fits the music.

She said it so I don't need to.

I want to respond to a couple things:

FlagCapper wrote:My only real criticism is there was a few bits, especially near the beginning, which felt ever-so-slightly sloppy and kind of went against the spirit of the track. Like at the beginning for instance you would be doing some flat-sled and one of the curves would turn unnecessarily sharply or the rider would land with a "bounce" rather than smoothly glide into the curve. Given that most of the track seemed to place an emphasis on being supersupersmooth these moments feel a bit out of place.

The intention in that section was to sync his head bobs with the music.

Rafael wrote:I also felt like in this track the 'safe' way was chosen. It seemed to me you refrained from adding experimental features in order to maintain a perfect execution.

The "safe" way would have been adding gwell chains and granuals to appeal to the quirk crowd. The experimental thing was to add a minute of low-pressure flatsled curves. (Making low pressure flatsled consistent for that long is not easy) The experimental thing was picking a song that doesn't have a climax. The experimental thing was opening with an all-flatsled first section. The experimental thing was making a track that we wanted to make, but predicted that you specifically would call "boring" and not watch all of Wink

by **Rafael** Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:03 pm

rabid squirrel wrote:The "safe" way would have been adding gwell chains and granuals to appeal to the quirk crowd.

That's also a safe way, but not the one I was referring to. What I felt was 'safe' is the fact that quirk was left out entirely as a 'statement', while what could've been done is find a way to use gwells (or other tricks) to your advantage and liking to accentuate certain moments. I'm sure there are uses of gwells you would've liked in this track.

The experimental thing was to add a minute of low-pressure flatsled curves.

Which isn't new..

The experimental thing was picking a song that doesn't have a climax.

Which is why I feel it's not my type of postmodern track. I like tracks that tell a story

Btw I'm feeling some passive agression from your post. Correct me if I'm wrong.

by rabid squirrel Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:10 pm

Yes, I was being a bit passive-aggressive. Hopefully in a friendly way.

- Quirk wasn't left out entirely. There are two manuquirk sections and a kramual. I thought we were pretty generous with our inclusion of quirk.
- A minute of low pressure smooth consistent flatsled curves is very new. Where has it been done before?
- This track does tell a story (well, that was the intention anyway). It's just a calm, simple story, not a big dramatic one.

by **FlagCapper** Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:28 pm

FlagCapper wrote:My only real criticism is there was a few bits, especially near the beginning, which felt ever-so-slightly sloppy and kind of went against the spirit of the track. Like at the beginning for instance you would be doing some flat-sled and one of the curves would turn unnecessarily sharply or the rider would land with a "bounce" rather than smoothly glide into the curve. Given that most of the track seemed to place an emphasis on being supersupersmooth these moments feel a bit out of place.
The intention in that section was to sync his head bobs with the music.

I see the head bob thing, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

It's kind of like this: very slow tracks usually have the selling point that everything is done with the intention of being exceptionally smooth and perfect. Part of this is a sort of consistency-of-motion thing, and part of it is a shape-of-the-curve thing, but the idea is to really, really, really sell the fact that you're in complete control of the rider. It felt to me like there were a few places -- not just in the beginning, but that's where it's the most noticeable -- but throughout the track where with relatively little effort things could have been made smoother and weren't.. That took me out of the "this is a great clean track" feeling to the "this could have been so much better if it was better executed" feeling.

by **Rafael** Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:35 pm

rabid squirrel wrote:Yes, I was being a bit passive-aggressive. Hopefully in a friendly way.

It's ok. My comment was pretty negative.

- Quirk wasn't left out entirely. There are two manuquirk sections and a kramual. I thought we were pretty generous with our inclusion of quirk.

Talking about the flatsled section

- A minute of low pressure smooth consistent flatsled curves is very new. Where has it been done before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzqHNYeHuTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4zNLQ8yAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UtgIFxtBY
Not 100% flatsled, but it uses the same principle as in here: Sync flatsled curves to voices/instruments and play with pressure. After seeing that a few times it gets dull. What I want to retain you from is the kevan syndrome - only focusing on simple tricks because you're too lazy/insecure to increase your skillset. I remember you saying you wanted to learn quirk, what happened to that?

- This track does tell a story (well, that was the intention anyway). It's just a calm, simple story, not a big dramatic one.

I'm hearing a story in the song, but I'm not really seeing it in the track. At 1:33 the music gets somewhat intense but the track gets slower, going back to 100% flatsled. I'm just trying to describe what I perceived by the way. Not trying to put down your track.

I agree with FC by the way.

by rabid squirrel Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:46 pm

Rafael wrote:
- A minute of low pressure smooth consistent flatsled curves is very new. Where has it been done before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzqHNYeHuTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4zNLQ8yAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UtgIFxtBY
Not 100% flatsled, but it uses the same principle as in here: Sync flatsled curves to voices/instruments and play with pressure. After seeing that a few times it gets dull. What I want to retain you from is the kevan syndrome - only focusing on simple tricks because you're too lazy/insecure to increase your skillset. I remember you saying you wanted to learn quirk, what happened to that?

You noticed that this track had my first kramual in it right? I learned how to do that quite recently.
None of those tracks have large low pressure smooth curves for any length of time longer than 10 seconds or so. But yes, I like flatsled, just as you like quirk. (And I suppose I often react to typical genres of quirk in ways similar to your reaction to this track, I just tend not to post my thoughts)

Rafael wrote:At 1:33 the music gets somewhat intense but the track gets slower, going back to 100% flatsled. I'm just trying to describe what I perceived by the way. Not trying to put down your track.

No worries. The track actually gets faster there. It's my opinion that flatsled actually looks a lot more intense than manuals. Flatsled allows for very high pressure curves and Bosh is smashed against the line the whole time. It's not as intense as flings of course but it looks more natural and more intense than a tail manual.

-----

I should probably respond to people who left positive comments!

Spoiler:

EDIT: missed FC's post

FlagCapper wrote:very slow tracks usually have the selling point that everything is done with the intention of being exceptionally smooth and perfect. Part of this is a sort of consistency-of-motion thing, and part of it is a shape-of-the-curve thing, but the idea is to really, really, really sell the fact that you're in complete control of the rider. It felt to me like there were a few places -- not just in the beginning, but that's where it's the most noticeable -- but throughout the track where with relatively little effort things could have been made smoother and weren't.. That took me out of the "this is a great clean track" feeling to the "this could have been so much better if it was better executed" feeling.

Good point. I do have a knee jerk reaction against this but I can't tell if it is because I have a legitimate reason for not wanting to take the advice, or because I don't want to accept that you're probably right

If I do have a legitimate reason, the reason is that I would like us to move away from a need for perfect execution. It's true I did not spend a lot of time on my parts, and I'm not going to argue that that makes them good. But I will argue that concept and ideas are far more important than perfect execution, and I will argue that I think our community gets real hung up on perfect execution being the end-all be-all of a track. Fling strength, manual pressure, "rules" of rotational flow, etc.

by shammies Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:05 pm

ehh, it's ok.

by **Sheldon** Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:05 pm

I liked it other than than the end, the end was very repetitive, I kept asking is it over? is this the last flatsled hump.

by **OTDE** Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:05 pm

Let's establish some things here.

In response to Anton:

In response to rafael:

by ScrungleBlumpkus Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:20 pm

This discussion really highlights how much the community projects themselves onto tracks, how sure they are of what the believe about trackmaking and trackmakers, and most of all the general attitude towards experimenting in such an accessible way.

You taught me that experimenting and being accessible and not mutually exclusive. This track is probably my favorite release since V3, for that. Wow.

by **Rafael** Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:49 pm

OTDE wrote:Your comments follow a pattern. That's not bad— in fact, it helps me understand your trackmaking philosophy. And that philosophy boils down to a single statement:

"The best tracks are impressive."

This track is not technically impressive. Nor, I think, was it really meant to be. I kind of knew at this point you'd be bored to tears by this track. That's okay— I figured that one after watching everyone's responses to Aria. I didn't expect you to like this, and that's fine. Here's what's not fine: calling a track "lazy" because you don't like it, or we didn't spend very much time making this track.

Here's the thing. If I had been worried about being called lazy for making and posting certain types of tracks, I wouldn't have made the following list of tracks:

COME TO DADDY
Aria
Night Rider
the forest under the earth

That's a lot of things I'm really proud of. For years, I was afraid of experimenting, because I was afraid of being called "lazy." Notice the shift in trackmaking after Gospel? That's when I let go of that fear.

You want to know why our community is so small? Because we're focused on making these high-detail, perfectionist, time-intensive tracks. We spend so much time caught up in making something perfect that we lose track of WHY we made those tracks to begin with. Look at all the people who quit or took long hiatuses because they decided to do a huge project and became disillusioned with Line Rider. Samthepoor, Ktk, miniboyns, TigerLine, smitsy, SETH, Aqua, hell, even you, Rafael. You've been gone for long periods of time yourself, you know what it's like.

I hope that at least makes things clear. The fact that people are responding negatively to this track is important, and means a lot more than no response at all.

Honestly, thanks for this comment. You taught me something about myself. You're right in a way, although I wouldn't say it's about impressiveness for me. Some of my favourite tracks aren't particularly impressive (Sleepyhead, Catalyst, Phunner). I'd rather say it's a combination of effort and creativity. I use Line Rider as a source of learning, and I think you learn the most from combining those two. Here's what I think: When you get to a certain level you can't improve more without putting in a lot of effort. I don't call this track lazy because I don't like it. I call it lazy because of the effort put in. FC worded it well. I might've gotten a different feel from this track if I did get the feel you were in total control.

I'm all for high-detail, perfectionist tracks. I wouldn't call starting huge projects disillusioned. I encourage the mentality of challenging and pushing yourself. As long as you don't get demotivated when you fail.

I don't remember being gone for a long period of time, or at least not suffering from it. My mind has been mostly off Line Rider because I've been more focusing on other things. I'm quite monomane, I can't focus on more than one thing at the time

Btw, because of your experimenting you (both you and rabid) are two one of my favourite players at the moment.

by **OTDE** Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:13 pm

Rafael wrote:
I'm all for high-detail, perfectionist tracks. I wouldn't call starting huge projects disillusioned. I encourage the mentality of challenging and pushing yourself. As long as you don't get demotivated when you fail.

Btw, because of your experimenting you (both you and rabid) are two one of my favourite players at the moment.

Large, pretentious, and addressing the above quote:

for the pragmatists (looking at you, chuggers):

by **Z_N-Freak** Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:47 am

I like being a part of this community Very Happy

by anton Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:00 am

OTDE wrote:Let's establish some things here.

In response to Anton:

Well this misses the point completely. My main point was that you sacrifice the enjoyability of the track just to make it accessible to a crowd that is not there. This isn't wrong or anything, I just don't enjoy it - which does NOT prove anything. Don't get me wrong, the track is interesting and I watched it all the way through, and it is not like I am only capeable of appreciating quirk.

opinions coming your way - I hope I can share them without making an enemy of myself

I get it, line rider is a platform for art and there are so many things that are left unexplored. You're trying to make the jump from niché to accessible art. I've shown some of my favorite tracks to friends of mine, and they have all been capeable of pointing out the which tracks are great, and which are not. Why this urge to simplify, nay stupidify, your work? Kramwood-stuff is far too complex for the non-rider, but tracks like Sssschillers Blank is boring, Pawels Crust, Opals abandoned 2, OTDEs gospel, are already somewhat accesible!

I guess, all I am saying is that I feel like some of this stuff is taking an uneccessary step step back, but what do I know. Maybe it is necessary to do so in order to move away from our current ways in order to branch out, which are indeed heavily influenced by quirk philosophy and lingo.

Maybe I am just talking shit - if such is the case, please do let me in on your thought process and enlighten me.

by ScrungleBlumpkus Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:12 am

^spot on response

by **Apple** Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:24 am

I have to say, we may all have different opinions, but we are doing a very good job keeping it civil in this thread.

by **Rafael** Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:08 am

Forgot to react to this

rabid squirrel wrote:You noticed that this track had my first kramual in it right? I learned how to do that quite recently.

Good job on the kramual, there's still a lot left to learn, though

I think you'd see more potential in quirk if you mastered it more. FYI I'm not pro-quirk nor anti-quirk. I just think that the more things you can do, the more creative you can get.

None of those tracks have large low pressure smooth curves for any length of time longer than 10 seconds or so. But yes, I like flatsled, just as you like quirk. (And I suppose I often react to typical genres of quirk in ways similar to your reaction to this track, I just tend not to post my thoughts)

If you get specific enough everything is unique, but the concept is still very similar. You get my point, right?

No worries. The track actually gets faster there. It's my opinion that flatsled actually looks a lot more intense than manuals. Flatsled allows for very high pressure curves and Bosh is smashed against the line the whole time. It's not as intense as flings of course but it looks more natural and more intense than a tail manual.

In terms of speed it got faster, but in terms of tempo it got much slower. Tempo contributes more to how intense a track feels than speed. Fair point about high pressure flatsled though.

by rabid squirrel Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:49 pm

Rafael wrote:In terms of speed it got faster, but in terms of tempo it got much slower. Tempo contributes more to how intense a track feels than speed. Fair point about high pressure flatsled though.

I'm not sure I understand this point either. The manual curves before the flatsled are, on average, longer and slower than the flatsled curves, which are faster and happen more quickly.

-----

The only real way I can respond to suggestions suggestions that flatsled is all very similar and simplified/stupidified is with "just you wait" followed by an evil laugh.

As for learning quirk, I also have plans to master quirk more but I have some much more exciting things to do before then. The thing about quirk is that so many people have released so much quirk that I don't want to spend time on quirk tracks that are just imitations of what has already been done. There is a lot more conceptual potential in places outside of quirk that are less time consuming to execute, and I'm super excited about it because nobody else has been exploring these places. But yeah, mastering quirk is something I hope to do eventually.

Sorry for levels of pretentiousness about what I have not yet released that rival dap's. But I don't want to talk specifics about tracks that I haven't released yet, and yet I already have plans for releases to respond to both of these points.

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