Why can't we be friends?

First of all, this is a serious thread. Read it all and think before you post. Don't be a hypocrite. Own up and be realistic, but don't bring in specifics. I want to have a serious discussion about a serious problem. I will not be happy if you make lame jokes or attempt to troll.

I've realized a few things today:
1) a disproportionate amount of the brief time I have to be on this site is spent arguing
2) this isn't new, it's been going on for years
3) this is driving people away from line rider
4) this is keeping people who still play line rider plenty from posting as much as they used to
5) it's getting worse as we all get less active, somehow
6) I don't have a clue how to stop it

I mean, the typical response is "Well don't argue" but it makes sense that people should be able to state their opinions, if they're on topic and respectful. I think that the problem arises when someone says something borderline off topic or borderline disrespectful and someone else calls them out, maybe misinterpreting, and then they take offense, and so on. This is a serious problem because both people become off topic very quickly, and because both assume the "well if he's obnoxious I'm going to be too" mentality. Preventing these things from starting is difficult because people feel the need to defend others rather than advocating for themselves - to avoid appearing self-centered.

The real problem is, the only way for it to stop is for 1) someone closes the thread 2) someone simply quits arguing. The first will resolve it for the time being but it is sure to flare up again later. The second requires that either they come to some sort of an agreement, or someone lets the other person have the last word. I feel like agreements are becoming less and less common and the second option is almost an impossibility due to our insatiable desire to defend ourselves and get a final word in edgewise, unless others get involved and say "quit arguing you idiots" (which I might add, is mild hypocrisy and just as off topic)

I feel like this has driven multiple players away from this site in recent years, making some quit line rider entirely because they're sick of our crap and making some mostly quit the forum while still playing line rider, afraid to express opinions because they don't want to start an argument. If you want some perspective, recall this thread: https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t4648-centrifugal-force-sheldon [please don't bump it] I was reading that just now and thought, you know, not much has changed since that. And it needs to. It seems like half the time a decent track is released the thread becomes a mini flame war.

So, what I want to know is, do you think this is a serious problem? Or is it just me?

Secondly, what can we do to stop it - as individuals (which will have limited success at best) and in terms of rules and enforcements. And in terms of setting examples (tough to do when the best example currently seems to be just plain not expressing opinions at all)

Being honest here, sorry.

But what it looks like to me is you're taking things a little too harshly. You will change your opinion to ooften, causing confusion, or will take action at just the wrong times. When I show new members LRFB, you didn't tell me to stop until like the 12 new guy here. What pissed me off is that if you were aware of it in the first place, why didn't you stop me then? So, there's that example. Another example I can think of is when you argue, you seem to want to force the other guy to think the same as you do. Of course, when an argument involves solid facts, that's what you want to do, but when it comes to opinion, you're forcing us to think what you want us to think, rather than sitting down and reading what we've said slowly, more than once.

So yeah, that's it in brief of how I'm seeing it.

If you don't mind me saying, I think you should believe in the coke rule. If someone says something you don't like, or makes you upset, take the time it would to enjoy a single can of coke, or soda of your choice ¬¬, and during that time, think about what to say very carefully.

People just need to learn when to stop talking. There is a point where there is no reason to reply to someone's post, and I feel like a lot of times people just carry out arguments needlessly when they could just shut up and appreciate the fact that people really don't like to argue. Expressing your opinions is different from forcing somebody to understand your opinion, and there is really no need for there to be more than 2 posts back and forth in an argument to get your point across.
In short, people need to learn when to stop a discussion. You really don't NEED to reply to everything somebody says. I roll my eyes whenever I see some people arguing over some petty point.

Also, just throwing this out here, I think Rabid is fueling most of the arguments that go around here. The only argument I ever got into here was with Rabid

kevansevans wrote:Being honest here, sorry.

But what it looks like to me is you're taking things a little too harshly. You will change your opinion to ooften, causing confusion, or will take action at just the wrong times. When I show new members LRFB, you didn't tell me to stop until like the 12 new guy here. What pissed me off is that if you were aware of it in the first place, why didn't you stop me then? So, there's that example. Another example I can think of is when you argue, you seem to want to force the other guy to think the same as you do. Of course, when an argument involves solid facts, that's what you want to do, but when it comes to opinion, you're forcing us to think what you want us to think, rather than sitting down and reading what we've said slowly, more than once.

So yeah, that's it in brief of how I'm seeing it.

If you don't mind me saying, I think you should believe in the coke rule. If someone says something you don't like, or makes you upset, take the time it would to enjoy a single can of coke, or soda of your choice ¬¬, and during that time, think about what to say very carefully.

rabid squirrel wrote:First of all, this is a serious thread. Read it all and think before you post. Don't be a hypocrite. Own up and be realistic, but don't bring in specifics. I want to have a serious discussion about a serious problem. I will not be happy if you make lame jokes or attempt to troll.

I'm pointing this out not because I'm trying to argue with you but because I really, really don't want to get into a LRFB discussion in this thread.

@ forcing the other person to think what I think - I don't understand how that's possible...

As far as I know, I often try to get someone to understand my perspective, and see the reason I disagree with them, rather than letting them assume I just dislike them personally... That's the most infuriating thing for me, when people make sarcastic comments that show that they think I just don't like them as a person and that must be the reason I disagree. It's the only thing besides, you know, blatant egotism or defying of rules or complete lack of respect for others - that leads to me actually disliking someone, ironically. Though if I do dislike someone I work very hard never to let that affect what I say.

I really didn't mean to turn this into a paragraph defending my actions, but I don't understand the whole forcing-someone-to-think-what-you-think thing...

@ the coke rule - I already spend so much time reading and rereading and editing my messages before I post them (often times I'll change a post even after I submit it) that I think it basically counts as abiding by that rule. Took me about 40 minutes to make this post.

shotoku wrote:People just need to learn when to stop talking. There is a point where there is no reason to reply to someone's post, and I feel like a lot of times people just carry out arguments needlessly when they could just shut up and appreciate the fact that people really don't like to argue. Expressing your opinions is different from forcing somebody to understand your opinion, and there is really no need for there to be more than 2 posts back and forth in an argument to get your point across.
In short, people need to learn when to stop a discussion. You really don't NEED to reply to everything somebody says. I roll my eyes whenever I see some people arguing over some petty point.

Also, just throwing this out here, I think Rabid is fueling most of the arguments that go around here. The only argument I ever got into here was with Rabid

I think I already kind of replied to some of this above...

But geez, is it really all caused by me? Why do I feel like I'm always the one trying to keep things from getting out of hand, when everyone else seems to think I'm the guy that starts arguments?

This is seriously worrying me. Like, is it just the longer I stay on this site the more angry I get at everyone? I've basically stopped going on the livestream because of stupid time consuming arguments that are inevitable and always happen and solve nothing, and now I'm feeling like I can't even stay on the forum anymore because it's such a waste of time for me and others with all this arguing. I created this site, I don't want to quit, but I can't go on like this. I used to be all on top of projects and stuff and now I feel like I'm forcing myself to come here because I know that either someone's going to be mad at me or someone's going to make me angry for one reason or another, and thus I procrastinate, and thus I procrastinate line rider projects, and so on... I really do still love line rider, but I'm starting to hate this community, and so I'm not getting anything done. EDIT: wow this sounds like I'm just making excuses for inactivity but I swear I'm being honest here EDIT2: wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who no longer played line rider stopped playing for similar reasons. Actually I would be surprised if that was NOT the case... EDIT3: scratch that "starting to hate" and make it "been hating this community more and more lately"

Yeah that turned into a word barf, sorry.

I think there is some sort of paradox in "trying hard to be happy." Actually, I'm fairly sure there's a quote about that, let me find it. (time googling)...

Something along those lines: "If only we'd stop trying to be happy we could have a pretty good time."

I think a lot of people truly do forget that in essence line rider is a toy. So by extension, we should realize that getting upset about anything line rider-related goes against its essence. So in that regard, getting upset because someone critiques your track very harshly has two negative parts within it; 1: you shouldn't get upset over it and 2: why critique so harshly? Offer suggestions, but not ridicule or even, to a certain extent, advice... If the person enjoys their own creation, then why not let them?

You should definitely get on the livestream more often Rabid. It is nearly always full of lightheartedness lately, and goes a long way for resuscitating a seemingly unconscious passion.

I think that a lot of it also has to do with condescension. People say something like "Oh I was expecting more from you, this could have been better man but next time for sure!" And arguments start up because of these opinions that either make people seem "small" or "not good enough" and also for some unnecessary reasons as well.

What really bothers me is when someone says something along the lines of "could have been better" or "here's what needs work" or even "not your best"

What I think is the problem in most cases is that it's good to give CNC but people do it in a way that makes others feel less skilled or not up to par with someone else or even themselves, like they have some sort of higher rank and almost look down on other people they feel are lesser than them.

What I think we need more of is modesty. I know I don't exactly have the cleanest record on the site but just from what I've seen from some members is they tend to act like they own the place or they're somehow higher on an imaginary scale they've made up.

I can only say so much since I don't read as many threads as I used to but the ones that I have I think this is quite evident. It seems like people play for the sake of trying to impress everyone else. Inventing new tricks, trying to exploit new glitches, etc. While that's great and I encourage everyone to do as they please and be creative, I don't think it should be the main purpose for playing to try to create something so you can hold it up on a pedestal. That's different than being proud of something that you made, because you do it for yourself.

Um... I think that's all I got.

Edit: Also, something that I noticed is that when we have a newer member or someone that doesn't usually make tracks, when they do make something, the community is so quick to give them advice and tips and tricks, but it's almost like they NEED to improve. But like.. why? What is the point... I don't get why we HAVE to improve. That's just the vibe that I get from this place sometimes and I'm sure others can relate. Of course you don't have to listen a word anyone says but really that's what it feels like in most cases. Like there's this need to do better and we all strive to evolve the game. If this were free rider would that be the case as well? Or any other game for that matter. When people play a game like MineCraft or any other sandbox game, they don't play to "get better" or to "improve" well I know for sure I don't. What I think Line Rider should be is a gateway to creativity and expression but it feels more like a huge competition. That's just how I see it. Feel free to agree or disagree, it's totally up to you. I hope everyone's doing well

I'm not going to point fingers, but Votale caused literally every argument ever until he left. Or did he get banned? I don't even remember. But recently I honestly haven't seen much arguing. I just looked around and found only one recent argument.. or did I look poorly?

But yeah. I hate that everybody feels obliged to comment on something that they disagree with. Just let people have their opinions. If they're breaking the rules, report the post, we delete it and then everyone lives happily ever after. Don't make a list of why they're wrong and all that [censored]. Then we see the quote pyramids with different colored text and you end up arguing about such abstract, irrelevant things that you forget what you were even arguing about in the first place. You look like children when you do this. Nobody wants to see your opinion of somebody else's opinion.

This is the part where you say "but AC sometimes people say such asinine things that aren't breaking the rules, and I can't let it go!" Report it anyway and I'll personally PM them and call them a poopface and tell them to be nice.

----------------------------
EDIT: But if you JUST HAVE TO say something, just be polite and concise, for the love of God.

ACwazHere wrote:If they're breaking the rules, report the post, we delete it and then everyone lives happily ever after. Don't make a list of why they're wrong and all that [censored]. Then we see the quote pyramids with different colored text and you end up arguing about such abstract, irrelevant things that you forget what you were even arguing about in the first place. You look like children when you do this. Nobody wants to see your opinion of somebody else's opinion.

Pretty much the things in bold.
I think that if the people in the arguments came back in a few weeks and read the whole thread, they'd realise how stupid an pointless the whole thing was.
So if we do want to actually stop this, the only advice I could suggest is:
If you're going to argue, at least do it in a polite manner. Treat others as you would want to be treated?
Yes that does sound pretty pathetic, but come on, we argue about pretty much anything when two people have conflicting opinions. As yeah, it sounds like I'm saying this to children, but, stop and think before you post.

I think most arguments start, not because they want to change one others opinion, but because they want to change their reasons of their opinion. That's what I used to do (and may still do sometimes). It's not the fact that someone disagrees with me that annoys me sometimes, but the fact that they cannot substantiate their opinion.

people feel the need to defend others rather than advocating for themselves - to avoid appearing self-centered.

I don't think people defend others for their reputation. WRtL is a community full of "nice guys". They can't stand injustice and will make sure there is justice. With the wrong argument opponent, this can escalate quickly.

Rabid, you may cause arguments, but I never see you as the bad guy when such thing happens. I see you have a very strong sense of justice, and you want to defend that. This makes you, whenever you see something bad, want to prevent it getting worse (the person you're talking to repeating their bad action) or repair the damage they've done. What I think is best, is what you've done right now. Create a thread, pointing no fingers, and making people openly discuss about a certain point.
I hate to take myself as an example but when I saw some people giving really, really bad criticism, I didn't call them out. Simply, because they don't realize their bad criticism. Instead, I tried to teach them to give good criticism. So I made the criticism tutorial thread thing. Now when I see people giving bad criticism, I can just redirect them to that thread, and I don't have to write entire paragraphs into a big argument.

For the rest I agree with AC, although an argument comes from two sides. You can't blame Votale for every argument (same goes for rabid). Actually, I don't like the whole blaming thing at all.

tbh there's arguing all over the internet, it's just that this forum is WAY more mature then the rest of the internet. Here the arguments turn into huge debates with giant paragraphs and they become more noticeable.

Other places on the internet the arguments just consist of "umadbro?"

Wizzy wrote:I think that a lot of it also has to do with condescension. People say something like "Oh I was expecting more from you, this could have been better man but next time for sure!" And arguments start up because of these opinions that either make people seem "small" or "not good enough" and also for some unnecessary reasons as well.

What really bothers me is when someone says something along the lines of "could have been better" or "here's what needs work" or even "not your best"

I personally have no problems with these kinds of comments on a seasoned player's (or even my) track, as long as they are constructive. Constructive criticism is OK, and in fact I like it. However, it's the people who say "I didn't like it." or "It could have been better." WITHOUT explaining WHAT they didn't like or WHAT could have been better that piss me off. More on this later.

Wizzy wrote:Edit: Also, something that I noticed is that when we have a newer member or someone that doesn't usually make tracks, when they do make something, the community is so quick to give them advice and tips and tricks, but it's almost like they NEED to improve. But like.. why? What is the point... I don't get why we HAVE to improve. That's just the vibe that I get from this place sometimes and I'm sure others can relate. Of course you don't have to listen a word anyone says but really that's what it feels like in most cases. Like there's this need to do better and we all strive to evolve the game. If this were free rider would that be the case as well? Or any other game for that matter. When people play a game like MineCraft or any other sandbox game, they don't play to "get better" or to "improve" well I know for sure I don't. What I think Line Rider should be is a gateway to creativity and expression but it feels more like a huge competition. That's just how I see it. Feel free to agree or disagree, it's totally up to you. I hope everyone's doing well

I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from here. Yes, I'm nubby a bit less "skilled" than most of the community. I can't necessarily do a 3rd-position no-contact foot fling under a nonfakie inverse spidey asdf, or what have you. So? I have fun with Line Rider doing what I can. If I make a track of all flatsledding, then I don't give a damn about what anyone thinks, just as long as I have fun with it. For me, pulling off advanced tricks is fun, and it's why I strive to do better. I guess I have this drive not necessarily to be the best player out there, but just to be on par with some of my inspirations. That is ENTIRELY personal. If you guys were all like "Why can't you be more like aspi or hedge or whoever," then I would quit.

If someone posts that my flings suck or that my curves are unsmooth, yeah, I get a little p.o.'d, but I set out to prove them wrong. On my last track I took a lot of crap for my flings, which, I will admit, were weak and suckish. So, to attempt to better myself at this game (and also kinda to prove you all wrong), my current work in progress is an all-gwell track over the course of which I have improved significantly. It's not the most technical track ever, but 1) I'm proud of it and 2) I'm having loads of fun making it. That's what this game is all about. If people don't like it, I don't care. I'm having fun while my haters are hating. You don't have to like my stuff, I don't expect you to like everything I do/make. Just 1) don't voice your opinion or 2) make your criticisms CONSTRUCTIVE so I can improve. If I get a generic "This sucks" comment with NO EXPLANATION, I will unabashedly post a long "f**k-you" rant debasing you and the dysfunctional family of crippled alcoholic retards you obviously come from. Don't be that guy. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, or at least make your point politely and succinctly. Geez, I learned this in second grade from Winnie the Pooh. It's seriously sad that people occasionally forget this, even in this relatively pleasant Internet community.

ACwazHere wrote:I'm not going to point fingers, but Votale caused literally every argument ever until he left.

I think one of the biggest problems with Votale starting arguments was not that he had opinions, but that he made his opinions KNOWN. It's fine to have an opinion, and it's fine to share it, but when you go and post "you people don't know jack-[censored] about modern xy" (or summat like that), people don't like it and they retaliate. If I was opposed to homosexuality, I would just keep my (narrow-minded) opinions to myself instead of running through the streets screaming "God hates [censored]" like some people do. I'm not saying Votale would be the "God hates [censored]" guy, but he sometimes opted to let the world know he didn't like something, to which the world would reply "Well then go f**k yourself," and then it snowballs into a huge flame war where people spew bigoted opinions, no one wins, and everyone drops a couple IQ points.

And yes, Rabid can occasionally cause arguments, but don't forget, he is pretty much the head admin here at WRtL. Admins across the Internet have a tendency to be a bit argumentative, short-tempered, and antisocial, due to their huge responsibility. That said, Rabid is one of the most encouraging, active, and helpful admins I've met, and frankly, I respect him for being as dedicated and involved as he is here. Even if he comes across as a bit argumentative at times, he does what he can to maintain peace and order around here. Sometimes it's nigh-impossible to avoid sparking a huge argument on the Internet, and it happens to all of us. I doubt that any one of us has never caused an argument here. I've only been here for a fraction of the time that some of you guys have, and I've started my fair share of debates. Also, it's fun to mess with authority. I lay money on it that half of the arguments that Rabid "starts" are caused by a sarcastic/trolling/idiotic response to one of his entirely innocent posts.

tl;dr:
Have fun with Line Rider, and don't let others tell you to change what you enjoy doing.
If you don't like something, either stfu or make your point nicely.
In the battle of Votale (or someone else with opinions) vs. the world, no one wins.
And Rabid, don't leave, you're not causing trouble.

Sorry for pointing the finger at myself now.

Sometimes it feels like I should leave this community. What I've learned from leaving is that I cannot sustain it for very long. I'm starting to get 'homesickness', because in a strange way this is my home.

Besides Votale I've often been addressed for my radical thinking but I've never 'won' a discussion on this site because literally nobody agrees with me. That's been very hard for me because I know the whole community will start to cut up rough when I post what I think of something, yet I'm still willing to have an unbiased, mature debate in which I'm able to defend myself properly and constructively. It feels like everyone here thinks I'm an idiot and after, even whilst, a debate I truly feel like an idiot for posting something that I shouldn't have posted.

Another point is that we're being way too serious about Line Rider. Yes, including me. Now that I've seen how big this problem is, it's probably better to just respect what people create in Line Rider and if you don't enjoy it, don't post.

A Line Rider-based community is confusing, but the rules of real life still apply (psh, coming from me ). Just chill the [censored] out.

All of you should belong in a skit. Really.

I'll give you a bit of perspective.

We're trying to be serious.

On a Line Rider forum.

Where the main goal is to post Line Rider tracks and have fun.

And if anyone isn't coming it isn't because they're scared of us or whatever, they just don't want to play Line Rider and aren't really interested in finding the forums if they aren't going to play it.

And if we're not being serious, it's not because we don't care. It's because we're at ease with this site.

And for me, it makes me that much happier to be able to do that.

I hope this thread resolved a lot of issues made everybody realize there's no reason to be mad at anybody.

Also, I think this needs to be posted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5OXON8vIaA#t=0m34s

Man, when I see two people arguing, I want to intervene, but then I'm just adding to it. And when I realize I'm part of an argument, it kinda feels bad.

I just wish I could stop it all and go have happy happy fun time with HG42, but where there's content, there's opinions. Where there's opinions, there's people. Where there's people, there's differences. Where there's differences, there's conflict. I feel kind of powerless to stop any of this.

I wasn't on the old IRTL for very long, but I remember it fondly. And that split second I had kinda starts to fade away when I see rants. Makes me want to quit line rider. That's because I'm an attention [censored], and I want you all to see my pretty new track and talk about how pretty it is. I'm here for the people and the positive reinforcement. I'll be the first to admit it's shallow, but I rarely have as much fun playing LR anymore.

I wish I could be less serious about this. Sorry for being a downer.

Aaaand then I saw the video and smiled a bit. Good on you, shotoku.

I'm a bit annoyed by the people being all "why so srs". This is a community of individuals, not just a site to dump your tracks in.

Rafael wrote:I'm a bit annoyed by the people being all "why so srs". This is a community of individuals, not just a site to dump your tracks in.

Doesn't mean we need to be angry at each other. I'm a part of many different things like this and I've never had any trouble with my friends at any of the other places. Yes we are individuals, but it could be so easy to get along it isn't even that funny. Humans are made to talk, discussions are unavoidable and okay, but there doesn't need to be any flaming going on. It is sad that people want to leave over such petty arguments that can be avoided with ease.

shotoku wrote:I hope this thread resolved a lot of issues made everybody realize there's no reason to be mad at anybody.

Also, I think this needs to be posted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5OXON8vIaA#t=0m34s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhuYsMW4VY

JoaTrades wrote:

shotoku wrote:I hope this thread resolved a lot of issues made everybody realize there's no reason to be mad at anybody.

Also, I think this needs to be posted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5OXON8vIaA#t=0m34s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhuYsMW4VY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

shotoku wrote:

Rafael wrote:I'm a bit annoyed by the people being all "why so srs". This is a community of individuals, not just a site to dump your tracks in.

Doesn't mean we need to be angry at each other. I'm a part of many different things like this and I've never had any trouble with my friends at any of the other places. Yes we are individuals, but it could be so easy to get along it isn't even that funny. Humans are made to talk, discussions are unavoidable and okay, but there doesn't need to be any flaming going on. It is sad that people want to leave over such petty arguments that can be avoided with ease.

I disagree again. Of course internet shouldn't be taken as seriously as "real life" (I don't like that term actually, internet is also part of life), but there's nothing wrong with feeling emotions over the internet IMO (anger as well). And you can't be friends with everybody. One shouldn't want to. There are just some people that you can't get along with, even if you tried.
Now there's a difference between openly flaming and flaming in a private conversation of course. The first is totally unnecessary 99% of the times, of course.
I'd type more, but I have to go for now

Well first I should say that the fact that we can all talk about this without getting angry at each other is heartening. <3

I'm going to try to only respond to a few things here and there or I'll be here all day. It'll probably be long anyway, sorry... I'll be as concise as possible so I hope you read it all.

@ "Line Rider is just a toy for fun, why are we getting all worked up about it?"
The sheer amount of time we've spent on this forum as individuals, the emotions we've experienced, the disagreements we've had, and the projects we've been proud of and been impressed by indicates that Line Rider isn't just mindless entertainment - we legitimately care about these things, and if we try to deny that it becomes less meaningful.

@ "The only thing that really bothers me is when people say 'could be better' but don't elaborate"
I think we all agree with this - the trouble is, how do you respond? If nobody responds, the maker of the track feels pretty devalued and the commenter doesn't realize anything is wrong. If the trackmaker gets defensive, then the commenter gets all "I have the right to say what I want" blah blah blah, and the trackmaker also looks like a jerk who can't take bad criticism. If a third party intervenes and defends the trackmaker, that's where you get the endless quote pyramids of arguing stupid points that are no longer even about the track until other people are like "STFU YOU IDIOTS" It just seems like a lose-lose-lose situation to me. Even if you PM them, like AC said, others who read the post might not realize anything is wrong with that kind of criticism. Or you get people calling them out in a nastier way because they don't realize an admin has already PMed them.

@ "Just be polite and respectful when you argue"
This is easy enough to say but hard to do when someone says something polite that is misinterpreted as venomous and responded to accordingly - then the obvious, "stop being a jerk" etc - then both parties feel wronged but neither feel they started it and neither one has the sheer willpower to stop it singlehandedly. Misinterpretation causes further issues when someone feels the need to clarify what they meant because they feel the other person is twisting their words.

ACwazHere wrote:I'm not going to point fingers, but Votale caused literally every argument ever until he left. Or did he get banned? I don't even remember.

That was totally a finger point, just saying... unless you were joking or something...

Rafael wrote:

people feel the need to defend others rather than advocating for themselves - to avoid appearing self-centered.

I don't think people defend others for their reputation. WRtL is a community full of "nice guys". They can't stand injustice and will make sure there is justice. With the wrong argument opponent, this can escalate quickly.

What I meant was, someone defends someone who posted a track and got unjust criticism because they don't want that person to have to defend themselves (we all know how nice it is to have someone else defend you) Maybe that's what you meant, but I thought I should clarify.

SPL4SHZ0N3 wrote:You should definitely get on the livestream more often Rabid. It is nearly always full of lightheartedness lately, and goes a long way for resuscitating a seemingly unconscious passion.

It felt like every other time I went on in June I'd either get in an argument or spend most of my time trying to stop myself from starting one. I'll try to drop by again sometime though.

OTDE wrote:I wasn't on the old IRTL for very long, but I remember it fondly. And that split second I had kinda starts to fade away when I see rants. Makes me want to quit line rider.

Would you believe me if I told you that the rants were WAY worse in 2008?

shotoku wrote:Humans are made to talk, discussions are unavoidable and okay, but there doesn't need to be any flaming going on. It is sad that people want to leave over such petty arguments that can be avoided with ease.

This is very true, but it undeniable that it occurs on this site, and arguments that are initially petty become huge things that cause grudges and make people leave... So this thread is about trying to figure out why it happens and solve it.

@ Raf and Rofl - thanks for the kind words

I think one of the problems we can target is how we state our opinions. I went back to some of these arguments, and they generally start by someone replying in general "Why do you think like that?". This causes the arguments where it feels like someone is trying to get us to think that way. So when we reply to an opinion, we should keep a "I think this, but what you think is cool too" kind of attitude. Then, when a discussion does develop, it's healthy rather than a big flame.

Another thing I'd like to point out, is that I actually enjoy any argument. Despite me coming off as very angry and what not, behind, I find it very stimulating. I think it's my subconscious trying to figure out what kind of person you are, I will even deliberately start one just because, not caring if I win or lose. After I do have an argument, no matter how heated, I do not feel angry at the person, I'm left with a "No hard feelings" sort of thing. I do get angry during it, but afterwards, I'm cool.

Yes It's a problem but not a big problem, and no its not you. Well first this type of stuff is not only happening on the internet but it's also happening in real life as well. Just to set the stage life is not fair as well all know, but people should be able to express their self's, but when something goes out of control it does need to stop.

I do agree with the lock thread and then making peace by ending a argument would be nice, but its not always going to happen like that. Maybe there could be some rules to set witch involve arguing or flame wars.

So like lets say a thread becomes a flame war or someone starts an argument, the staff could stop the problem by looking over recent posts in the thread to see who started it. Or ask them what happened if the problem becomes hostile or no proof is there and the admins would receive a message from a staff member privately, addressing a member who has done 1 or 2 things, then the admin would discuss their punishment privately, witch then would be the last thing to do. Maybe something like this would be good to do.

OTDE wrote:I just wish I could stop it all and go have happy happy fun time with HG42

I had to check for username tags

And yes. I will have happy happy fun time with jhoo soon.

shotoku wrote:People just need to learn when to stop talking.

This stuck out to me the most because I realized when I read that sentence that is something I have become increasingly better at.

Most of the time I read through some discussions or arguments and start thinking up my response and as I finish reading all the posts I just decide it's not necessary to go on about.