You should have strong opinions.

Bored. Decided to make a thread, giving my opinion.. about opinions.

Strong opinions are a good thing. Heated discussions ending up in people getting pissed off are a good thing.

The truth is, we all don't see the big picture of Line Rider. We all have no clue what we're doing. Nobody here has grown up with a guide to Line Rider. Everybody starts with absolutely nothing and tries to make sense of all the crap that's thrown at us. The way I see it, when we give our opinion we try to put our own thoughts into words and this helps ourselves structure all the things we have to process. And as an extra, other people see your thoughts and can learn from them and/or make some additions about things you haven't thought about. Don't avoid confrontation and disagreement. Embrace it. Love it. When someone expressively disagrees with you, see it as an opportunity to get some food for thought and make your opinion more sophisticated. Giving your opinion about things helps you to better yourself.

My main message here is: Some people here may come across like they know everything, and this may come over as intimidating to you. Don't let those people inhibit you in giving your opinion. If you disagree with someone, don't go 'Oh he must have it right, I'll just shut up.' Even if he is right, you'll still learn something new when entering the discussion and that's something you're deprived of if you don't do anything. We're all here to learn and have fun, so go out and tell us what you think!

Now replace Line Rider with 'life' and this may translate to a life lesson on open-mindedness and self development

I really agree with this post except for the use of the word "Hurt" in the second sentence. Maybe it's just language?

I don't think hurting people is ever a good thing. Frustrated is fine, annoyed is fine, even defensive is fine. But if someone is HURT, then you've accomplished nothing because you have permanently damaged your relationship with them and they will never engage with you or listen to you again.

Ideally, we would all be able to have strong opinions that differ while still remaining friends. I think we should all strive to have friends who challenge us with different opinions and who will hold their own in a debate/discussion without getting angry or defensive. (And not friends who simply agree with everything we say)

I agree with rabid.

I don't see being hurt as something permanent. If you say mean things to each other and hurt each other you can still talk it out after and end up having a stronger relationship than before.

That said, frustrated/pissed off/angry are better words, edited. Completely agree with the rest though!

I strongly disagree

Anton wrote:I strongly disagree

well FUCK YOU

Anton wrote:I strongly disagree

Well I disagree with your disagreement.

Opal Rider wrote:

Anton wrote:I strongly disagree

Well I disagree with your disagreement.

I disagree with both of you low lives.

Okay, so then why did Rafael make this post if he's also running TOL, the most objectifying way we could possibly look at LR ever and trying to go for what's the best overall, and not just having people like their own opinions to themselves?

^ ToL is a pretty great way to get people discussing their opinions about LR tracks.

Instead of arguing about how someone makes a track, why not let the trackmaker discover what they'd like to ultimately create? The way we've responded to min3r's tracks is exactly why this game is impossible to get into.

Preach

Fauxfyre wrote:Okay, so then why did Rafael make this post if he's also running TOL, the most objectifying way we could possibly look at LR ever and trying to go for what's the best overall, and not just having people like their own opinions to themselves?

Because I think it's interesting to see what people think of the tracks people made! And also because it evokes discussion which I'm in favour of. Just look at the walls of text that have been produced so far, I certainly learned some new things about how to view a track.

Chuggers wrote:Instead of arguing about how someone makes a track, why not let the trackmaker discover what they'd like to ultimately create?  The way we've responded to min3r's tracks is exactly why this game is impossible to get into.

To get good at anything, you need to cover the basics first. Look at Anton, he has spent lots of time on learning to control Bosh, and now that he's got that covered he suddenly took his ideas to the next level and created something amazing. Now that he has the ability to create what he wants, we can let our pupil fly

Anton did that on his own, or at least with the help of dap and sheldon. Sure he might be good at the game, but he's just another quirker. This is not what we should be striving for, as it will only lead to further the stagnation of tracks in each genre.

I'd rather look ignorant and uneducated and learn from people than BE ignorant and uneducated and have some kind of personal record of "least times I looked like a fool"

Also, Chuggers makes a fantastic point. We're not letting him discover the game at all. We're essentially explaining to him that he's bad for not discovering it the way we think he'd be best off doing so.
I feel bad about that.

Rafael wrote:

Chuggers wrote:Instead of arguing about how someone makes a track, why not let the trackmaker discover what they'd like to ultimately create?  The way we've responded to min3r's tracks is exactly why this game is impossible to get into.

To get good at anything, you need to cover the basics first.

I've seen you say this many times before, but I think this only held true during the modern era, when everyone tried to be good at flings and manual pressure etc. Now we're heading in a quite different direction, where creativity and innovation are appreciated a lot more. Look at how Assault and Forbidden were received, two tracks that are technically comparable. We shouldn't tell new people to do this first, then that, and ultimately that. There's no guidebook, there are no rules. I fully agree with Chuggers here.

EDIT: And I also agree with the OP, btw

I sometimes have opinions. I don't like to let them dictate what other people do-- I've found that it doesn't help as much as I want it to, or makes the other person miserable. I could just come on too strong, though.

Fuck y'all, fuck this thread, fuck my reply, fuckin' fuck.

Chuggers wrote:Anton did that on his own, or at least with the help of dap and sheldon.  Sure he might be good at the game, but he's just another quirker.  This is not what we should be striving for, as it will only lead to further the stagnation of tracks in each genre.

Dapianokid wrote:Also, Chuggers makes a fantastic point. We're not letting him discover the game at all. We're essentially explaining to him that he's bad for not discovering it the way we think he'd be best off doing so.
I feel bad about that.

Helios Pavonine wrote:

Rafael wrote:

Chuggers wrote:Instead of arguing about how someone makes a track, why not let the trackmaker discover what they'd like to ultimately create?  The way we've responded to min3r's tracks is exactly why this game is impossible to get into.

To get good at anything, you need to cover the basics first.

I've seen you say this many times before, but I think this only held true during the modern era, when everyone tried to be good at flings and manual pressure etc. Now we're heading in a quite different direction, where creativity and innovation are appreciated a lot more. Look at how Assault and Forbidden were received, two tracks that are technically comparable. We shouldn't tell new people to do this first, then that, and ultimately that. There's no guidebook, there are no rules. I fully agree with Chuggers here.

While I fully agree on that you should let a trackmaker free in what he wants to create, I'm curious as to how you want to give criticism if you can't give advice on how to learn new things. If all you can do is flatsled you can have the most amazing ideas without being able to execute any of them the way you want to. To compare this with producing: I have a friend who laid out a path for me to follow to become better at producing:
1. Create a personalized sample library with sounds you like
2. Find plugins. Some plugins are 'standard' and can help anybody (Addictive Drums, Nexus, Kontakt, Fabfilter)
3. Learn some things about music theory
4. Experiment a lot
This gives an example of a path that works and I can still control my own path (I learned about music theory first, for example). I'd easily take this advice over the 'improve however you want to improve' advice, since that'd still leave me clueless as to how to improve efficiently. We've all been down the road of starting from scratch and improving, and helping someone choosing an efficient path to becoming better can only help.

In the end, it's up to the trackmaker to decide which criticism he takes to heart and I don't think we should be inhibited on criticism because of the chance he 'shaped' by our criticism.

Line rider does not have as much depth as producing music. The music industry is well established and the threshold of experience/skill to be successful is a lot higher.

The criticism I'm pointing out is that which is trying to push a certain aspect of the game onto someone. Not everyone would benefit from knowing endgame quirk, but there are some still trying to push it on others without thinking about what they want to make. The problem is that we make some things seem more important than they need be, like the technicality or purpose of a track.

Telling someone how to make flings better when they have already shown interest in making flings is not pushing something onto someone.

I'd like to point out that Anton is only making discoveries past those of those who came before him in the genre that has already been so largely explored. It kind of snowballs the level of excitement you get when you can do new things in such an overdone genre, so it's a nasty trap that only time will find anybody trapped there getting out of.
I recommend we just let people play as they want, and the stagnation of genres will gradually decrease as the uniqueness of everybody in the community seeps into our tracks again. There is no ultimate goal, and if there were we aren't the people to achieve it.

Chuggers wrote:Telling someone how to make flings better when they have already shown interest in making flings is not pushing something onto someone.

I need this quote but without the explicit Line Rider references. This is great otherwise in the base concept.
Also, as far as comparing to "music", I there's still things in music that are generally told to improve on, such as keeping on beat/rhythm, and making notes even and not tremble in pitch or volume. I think this would be some things in LR, such as making sure flings are smooth and manuals are evenly pressured. However, other things, like encouraging stacking, complex flings, or faster speed, goes into telling people to make certain genre's of music, and not very good.

On that note however, on someone who starts to make flings, it is probably good to tell them how to make flings better, as that gives them a good direction on how to do what they enjoy more.

Chuggers wrote:Line rider does not have as much depth as producing music.  The music industry is well established and the threshold of experience/skill to be successful is a lot higher.

The criticism I'm pointing out is that which is trying to push a certain aspect of the game onto someone.  Not everyone would benefit from knowing endgame quirk, but there are some still trying to push it on others without thinking about what they want to make.  The problem is that we make some things seem more important than they need be, like the technicality or purpose of a track.

Telling someone how to make flings better when they have already shown interest in making flings is not pushing something onto someone.  

Fauxfyre wrote:

Chuggers wrote:Telling someone how to make flings better when they have already shown interest in making flings is not pushing something onto someone.

I need this quote but without the explicit Line Rider references. This is great otherwise in the base concept.
Also, as far as comparing to "music", I there's still things in music that are generally told to improve on, such as keeping on beat/rhythm, and making notes even and not tremble in pitch or volume. I think this would be some things in LR, such as making sure flings are smooth and manuals are evenly pressured. However, other things, like encouraging stacking, complex flings, or faster speed, goes into telling people to make certain genre's of music, and not very good.

On that note however, on someone who starts to make flings, it is probably good to tell them how to make flings better, as that gives them a good direction on how to do what they enjoy more.

Ah, something becomes clear to me. When talking about stacking, I don't mean this, but this. The latter is pretty basic knowledge, right? Because I agree you shouldn't push your beliefs on other trackmakers (mentioning is okay though).

Dapianokid wrote:I'd like to point out that Anton is only making discoveries past those of those who came before him in the genre that has already been so largely explored. It kind of snowballs the level of excitement you get when you can do new things in such an overdone genre, so it's a nasty trap that only time will find anybody trapped there getting out of.
I recommend we just let people play as they want, and the stagnation of genres will gradually decrease as the uniqueness of everybody in the community seeps into our tracks again. There is no ultimate goal, and if there were we aren't the people to achieve it.

There is no ultimate goal, but anyone just starting out only want one thing. To get better.

This is the first good discussion of 2016 (just kidding)

Obviously, if a person wants help with a particular aspect of trackmaking that somebody else is good at, there's no harm in helping them with that. But, if I'm young or impressionable and a person even joking says "No, you can't do this shit anymore, go do this shit over here because it's much more fun and will matter more in the long run and you will only continue to suck if you don't," you can pretty much bet that I'm going to either follow their advice, leave, or follow and then leave because I realized I wasn't playing for me.

Which, is kinda what happened there for a little while, when I wasn't playing for me. Now, that was my fault, but people get bored with such a diminishing return, ya know?

Just throwing in my two cents, I don't think anyone here ever told somebody that they shouldn't do something. If they did, I would've called them out for it, because that's just silly talk. Instead, we give them ideas on what they could work on, if they so chose to do so. "I suggest you try strengthening your wells, or "Maybe you could try cleaning up your manuals" are constructive criticism for making tracks more enjoyable. Does it need to feel forceful on the person making the track? Of course not. But it gives them a direction to move in, something to strive for.

As an added example, in some of my really early tracks, the main criticism that I received was that my flow wasn't very good. Now I'm like a river of smooth because of it.