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ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by anton Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:53 pm
Advanced Studies in Quirk
Here I will add things whenever I create them, maybe add a little explanation and whatever additional information I discover. Expect constant updates. I will document things as I stumble upon them and explain whatever trick/technique/theory is voted on in the poll. No, this will not be a showcase thread. My goal is to make knowledge about technical quirk more available. Please do ask questions.
_______________________________________________________________________
Here I will add things whenever I create them, maybe add a little explanation and whatever additional information I discover. Expect constant updates. I will document things as I stumble upon them and explain whatever trick/technique/theory is voted on in the poll. No, this will not be a showcase thread. My goal is to make knowledge about technical quirk more available. Please do ask questions.
- General:
- Diary:
03.feb.2016 - Singularity
05.feb.2016 - Perpendicular kramual cannon
06.feb.2016
- Update log:
- 23.apr.2016:
- revisted the hyperkramual section
- proved my ancient sled hyperkramual theory
- added a contact point map (why wasn't that already a thing somewhere else?
- added link to superstacks video with rabid
- tidied layout, added the "general" section
- Tools:
- Map of contact points whilst in kramual
- History up until mid january 2016:
The story thus far (fairly accurate, don't feel free to point out minor mistakes. However, do feel free to add any important info)- Sheldon and dap tried to angle kramuals a bit, LRA came, I tried to angle it a bit more, before we knew it we'd discovered first forced kramuals (they were pretty much XY +- 5 degrees).
- A few months later Sheldon started fucking shit up and kramual curves emerged from the depths of Satan’s anus. WTK started and we figured out insane methods to manipulate iterations/sub frames.
- I made an angled kramual airtime by luck during the making of WTK. Then, by accident, we had non-XY kramual airtime. I discovered them, but none of us understood it. Some time passes.
- By altering iterations i successfully made a leftwards cannon start (98ppf). Dap thought, "Oh shit, I know what to do with this".
- Once again, shit got fucked up, and from gods precum glitchquirk was given birth to. This is what is shown during the last few seconds of the WTK video.
- Sheldon, the noob, developed an in-game theory for why angled kramual airtime is possible (with some help and clues from Conun??). Floating contact points-theory and the idea of inaccurate calculation of contact points and some more freaky-deaky shit led to "the matrix" (badass name). In short: a visualization of where angled kramual airtime would be possible.
- Sheldon and dap tried to angle kramuals a bit, LRA came, I tried to angle it a bit more, before we knew it we'd discovered first forced kramuals (they were pretty much XY +- 5 degrees).
- Iterations explained:
- Iterations are what happen between every frame in LR. Between frame A and frame B the game physics will affect bosh 6 times. The code involved is complex and in depth, but you can essentially expect the following:
One iteration:
- Constraints try to reset
- Contact points interact with lines
- Contact points get pulled a tiny bit back to the starting position (there is a lot of math involved here)
- If tail fakie check -> falls off sled
- Head under sled check -> falls off sled
The process is repeated 6 times. Every visible frame is in reality just the sixth iteration of that frame.
As long as he is not in tail fakie, his head is underneath the sled, and his contact points are not pulled too far apart from each other, Bosh should live through all the iterations.- Visualization:
- In this example, I made a stack in the first frame. I tried to pull pretty much all his contact points, but did not feel it necessary to make it very strong.
Let us have a real good look at the last frame in this short gif. Some things do not add up. There is no visible wells affecting his string, or that one hand contact point, or his shoulder, yet they are still floating midair. Assuming that all the physic calculations occur during the visible frames, this makes no sense. Only once we start entertaining the idea of sub frames, we can get a good insight of how the physics and Bosh's location is actually calculated. Here is what actually happens:
- Theacp explained it like this:
- Theacp127 wrote:That is what's happening here. Between each frame, the game has to check to see if there is anything that would interact with Bosh before he arrives to the frame that Bosh would go to if not acted upon by an outside force. This is what causes stacks to work. The game sees that the contact point is being acted upon so it calculates a new vector direction and power and if there is another line that can also interact with the same contact point in the same direction then it adds more force to the vector. As long as the recoil of the contact point is not too extreme then the stack will be survivable, and this is why kramual cannons can be so much stronger than pretty much any other stack. Since the contact points in a kramual are locked, there is less recoil since there is nowhere for them to go. These guys are effecting all the vector directions multiple times between each frame to create a desired effect like the singularity.
- Singularity:
- So the latest thing, I guess, would be Singularities. In theory, it is just forcing two perpendicular kramuals at the same time. Sheldon and I briefly visited the idea of singularity when we were playing around with non-XY kramuals during late summer of 2015. We were able to force all the contact points into a singularity, but were not able to make it anywhere close to living. I never had a lot of hope for this theory until very recently. Late January I sat down and jokingly tried to achieve singularity, as a sort of goof. However, I early on found some indicators that it might not be so impossible, as I previously thought. The more I thought about it the more plausible it seemed. I finally achieved a living singularity (died following frame), but as is with most wtf frames, as long as Bosh's contact points are not too far away from each other, you can make him survive any position. The only requirement is that he is alive for the second iteration.
This gif is the first survived singularity and its iterations. From normal playback, you can ONLY see the last iteration.
only singularity through XY kramuals?? 45 degree kramuals cannot be forced with a perpendicular line, it has to be slightly less (/more depending on direction) than 45 http://prntscr.com/9zd10b
This makes me think you can only do singularity by combining xy kramuals. It is for sure easier to deal with, so I'll stick with that for now, but might revisit the idea.
Third of February 2016 (I know, it sounds official). I discovered something Rabid now refers to as "Perpendicular cannon". I like that name. So do you know how the lines in standard kramual cannon are parallel to bosh's kramual position? The other day I got this idea while working with singularities; What if the cannon is perpendicular to Bosh's position? I toyed around with the idea and discovered this:
This trick is difficult to make because you have to make sure Bosh does not die between the iterations. It is similar to a stack, but because the string well of the first iteration might become a lethal second peg well in one of the later iterations; you are more or less forced to stack it to near max strength. Every contact point can only be moved so far, which means towards max strength the contact points at the bottom of the first iteration have moved as far as they can, and you can then continue to stack contact points near to it without interfering with the bottom one.- Basically like this:
- Hyperkramuals:
- ”How”:
This trick is all about momentum vectors. When bosh in kramual position collides with another kramual line, it will apply force to the contact points and will thus create recoil. The stronger the well is, the farther away from a livable position he becomes (pay attention to the orange lines).- Spoiler:
However, we can use the recoil to our advantage. If the recoil is right, the shoulder's momentum will be opposite to the other contact points momentum. This enables the shoulder to be pushed by wells that will not affect any other contact point.- Spoiler:
We end up with something like this- Spoiler:
You have to reinforce kramual position by forcing bosh into a kramual line the frame after, if you want to stay in kramual. Hyperkramuals tend to kill him, but as long as there are no orange contact point connections you can usually make him live.
I wrote this 23rd of December 2015
“Dap made the first Hyperkramual in Inhibitions and has since referred to this specific position as the hyperkramual. However, I believe you can align different contact points to achieve similar sprite changes. This refers mainly to the singularity concept.”
I have since learned that this theory stands. You can achieve numerous hyperkramuals by combining hand, shoulder or feet with the butt (You can even combine multiple body parts!), or by combining hand + shoulder. Sled hyperkramual should also be possible by aligning second peg and string, but I am not sure if this can happen in other situations than singularities. Might revisit this theory.
*EDIT* Sled hyperkramuals are possible! (this is just an iteration, but it is possible to get it in a visible frame under the right circumstances)- 2nd Peg + String:
While I was experimenting with singularities, I discovered some of the possible hyperkramuals:- Butt + shoulder + one hand:
- Hands + butt:
- Feet + butt (this does not live, but proves that feet alignment is possible, and most likley survivable):
There are dozens of undiscovered hyperkramuals, but because they only last for a frame, they are rarely worth the effort.
_______________________________________________________________________
- Videos:
- Kramuals and Survival Techniques
Superstacks
Last edited by Anton on Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:45 am; edited 12 times in total
anton- Member
- cool
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Fauxfyre Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:02 am
This is wrong on so many levels. Not like, incorrect, just disturbingly wrong
Fauxfyre- Member
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Opal Rider Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:41 am
I'm not sure I completely understand the term subframe yet, and that seems like the key to figuring out everything you're talking about. Are you somehow affecting Bosh between frames?
Opal Rider- Moderator
- Aestetikally appealing
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Conundrumer Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:53 am
When I get around to implementing super-debug mode, you'll be able to see in between iterations. As in, each individual point-line collision, separately, one after the other. In addition to seeing the collision grid, which defines the extent to which lines can have influence over contact points. That should help out with these studies.
I can also contribute to explaining how the nature of floating point numbers leads to kramuals (both xy and angled). It'll take a while for me to write that, though. I gave a preview here: https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11441-the-floating-point-matrix
for future reference, here's the code defining the physics: https://github.com/conundrumer/lr/blob/master/core/riders/Rider.js#L94-L118
When I implement super-debug mode, I can livestream a lecture on the details of the physics.
I can also contribute to explaining how the nature of floating point numbers leads to kramuals (both xy and angled). It'll take a while for me to write that, though. I gave a preview here: https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11441-the-floating-point-matrix
for future reference, here's the code defining the physics: https://github.com/conundrumer/lr/blob/master/core/riders/Rider.js#L94-L118
When I implement super-debug mode, I can livestream a lecture on the details of the physics.
Conundrumer- Line Rider Legend
- actually working on OII
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Fauxfyre Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:20 am
This is like, getting touched by your uncle wrong.
I remember when I was working in an LR version I had subframe viewing at first to make it so I could understand what was happening. It was so strange. People don't think it would affect quirk much but it would.
I remember when I was working in an LR version I had subframe viewing at first to make it so I could understand what was happening. It was so strange. People don't think it would affect quirk much but it would.
Fauxfyre- Member
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by mmtunligit Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:40 am
Wiat, I don't even understand kramuals, mabey that might be something to cover, so Newer people understand how they work
mmtunligit- Member
- Nerds like me rule
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Z_N-Freak Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:16 pm
This is all Hocus Pocus to me, but it's super interesting to read about all your findings, so please do continue! Amazing discoveries man 
Z_N-Freak- Member
- Off-sled Action
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by rabid squirrel Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:19 pm
I think you'll need to explain iterations more clearly - I even know what they are and still had trouble understanding what you were saying.
And you should definitely explain the basics of kramuals before explaining kramual cannons let alone singularities.
And you should explain co-strengthening and normal stacks before saying things like "after you've just made a tricky stack"
And you should definitely explain the basics of kramuals before explaining kramual cannons let alone singularities.
And you should explain co-strengthening and normal stacks before saying things like "after you've just made a tricky stack"
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Rafael Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:52 pm
This is starting to look like this now.
Nice findings. I'm personally not a fan of breaking LR down to coding. It gets closer to a science than a game :/
Nice findings. I'm personally not a fan of breaking LR down to coding. It gets closer to a science than a game :/
Rafael- Line Rider Legend
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Sheldon Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:23 pm
Science is his game man. Mine too tho. 
Sheldon- Line Rider Legend
- words have been said
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by rabid squirrel Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG12kBqlFaw
Squirrel Broadcast! Anton taught me how to do all sorts of kramual things including kramual cannons. This stuff is shockingly easy.
Squirrel Broadcast! Anton taught me how to do all sorts of kramual things including kramual cannons. This stuff is shockingly easy.
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
-
RyderLR- Member
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by theacp127 Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:47 am
That's what's happening here. Between each frame the game has to check to see if there is anything that would interact with Bosh before he arrives to the frame that Bosh would go to if not acted upon by an outside force. This is what causes stacks to work. The game sees that the contact point is being acted upon so it calculates a new vector direction and power and if there is another line that can also interact with the same contact point in the same direction then it adds more force to the vector. As long as the recoil of the contact point is not too extreme then the stack will be survivable, and this is why kramual cannons can be so much stronger than pretty much any other stack. Since the contact points in a kramual are locked, there is less recoil since there is nowhere for them to go. These guys are effecting all the vector directions multiple times between each frame to create a desired effect like the singularity.Opal Rider wrote: Are you somehow affecting Bosh between frames?
theacp127- Member
- trying real hard
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by ScrungleBlumpkus Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:41 am
I'm glad we're finally working on a sub-frame level and that it's all out in the open
This is some really well written, good stuff. I remember back when I was talking about the sub frame stuff I was doing in CAF and I thought it'd never take off. Who knew how much potential it had!
This is some really well written, good stuff. I remember back when I was talking about the sub frame stuff I was doing in CAF and I thought it'd never take off. Who knew how much potential it had!
ScrungleBlumpkus- Member
- Interior Crocodile Alligator
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Sheldon Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:43 am
In beta 2 it was virtually inexessable to everyone but you lol.
Sheldon- Line Rider Legend
- words have been said
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by anton Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:57 pm
Updated.
Redid "Iterations briefly explained"
placed the kramual map under "tool" section - might rename section if I cannot think of any other similar tools
Fixed some gramatical errors
I will keep updating according to suggestions!
Redid "Iterations briefly explained"
placed the kramual map under "tool" section - might rename section if I cannot think of any other similar tools
Fixed some gramatical errors
I will keep updating according to suggestions!
anton- Member
- cool
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by anton Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:10 am
Anton wrote:Sled hyperkramual should also be possible by aligning second peg and string, but I am not sure if this can happen in other situations than singularities. Might revisit this theory.
Hey look at this! I highly suggest y'all check out the updated hyperkramual thread as well as the other things I updated
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IIUnGcUMI9ABEWpc-RJkldtPDEco3c5B1GMz_IwIwIo/edit?usp=sharing
this is the document Sheldon, dap and myself, worked on during wtk. there should be a list of tricks in there for y'all to suggest. Anyway, the document will never be finished and it is not very grand. It never became a friction of what I wanted it to be, and it shows. There should be a TON of reliable information, but there is also alot of speculation here.
anton- Member
- cool
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by anton Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:46 am
New link to documents should work!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IIUnGcUMI9ABEWpc-RJkldtPDEco3c5B1GMz_IwIwIo/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IIUnGcUMI9ABEWpc-RJkldtPDEco3c5B1GMz_IwIwIo/edit?usp=sharing
anton- Member
- cool
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by Lukking Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:22 am
WOW at that document! Greatly done
Lukking- Member
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by rabid squirrel Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:39 am
Too bad most of it is incomplete 
rabid squirrel- Member
- I'm the artsy person round here
-
Re: ASIQ - Hyperkramuals revisited
by ScrungleBlumpkus Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:10 pm
We should really try to finish this...
ScrungleBlumpkus- Member
- Interior Crocodile Alligator
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