Limitations - The LCC

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:56 am

Shotoku wrote:*insert pyramid quote*
I think it goes without saying that you shouldn't sacrifice flow, cohesiveness, and overall entertainment for doing something that is just insane skillwise.
This basically is a tl;dr of what I'm about to type.

While I didn't really dislike everything before sheldon and HP... I didn't feel like it fit very well with the ending. It was two completely different things, and it didn't feel like a vision being executed like the middle section of The Well-Tempered Manual, but rather... disjointed and unplanned.

So while Sheldon and HP's parts are technically insane, and definitely game changers for XYs in the future, I really don't like this track much as a whole (not just because of the music either, I watched rofl's re-edit with noisa). They don't match the track that comes before them - especially splash's part right before sheldon's part, there's a huge skill jump for no real reason - but also a lot of the stuff before that too feels like Bosh is just sort of killing time, and that doesn't make it very engaging. A good omnitrack has parts that are less intense but equally engaging (think centrifugal force or handlebars) and this had, like, 70% stuff that maybe wasn't actually half-assed, but felt to me like it was a lot of the time. I liked the roborant-style moment, but a lot of the rest was the same slow tossing around of Bosh that all pretty much felt like it was just filling up space. Maybe this was because nobody expected sheldon's part to be as ridiculous as it was, but while that might be accurate it's an excuse and doesn't make it an enjoyable final product.

The reason I'm being so harsh is that this is primarily directed at you, boo, because this is your first project direction experience. Directing a project is tough because you need to 1) correctly judge who will be good at stuff, and save it for the right moments 2) figure out how to not let the best stuff overshadow the lesser stuff with smooth transitions between different people 3) figure out how to make the less intense stuff still interesting in different ways and 4) have a standard that you require people to meet, and not being afraid of cutting out half-assed parts. This collab had some amazing potential going for it, and it has some crazy moments but it doesn't hold together as a whole as well as it could have.

Also I want to take a moment to defend opal. the last parts are engaging from a technical perspective, but from a pure entertainment/immersion perspective it comes out of nowhere and is such a drastic change the reaction is "what is this and why is it here" instead of something like "oooooohh!" or "wheeeee!" WTM's crazy quirk section made me laugh out loud and actually applaud (I actually physically applauded the first time I watched it) while the first time I saw this I was like "whoa what" in a mostly-just-confused way.

okay long post. This was so far a critique of boo's project direction mostly. Sheldon, awesome technical job but maybe think less about showing everyone your skills (read: insane amount of work put in for a single second) and more about fitting into the vision of the track/project. HP, your part was actually my favorite because it fit more nicely even if sheldon's was more powerful. Boo, I loved your roborant moment and was sad we didn't have more of that in the middle, which could have made the track a lot more interesting overall.

sorry for typing a novel. rabid out.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Cereal on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:17 pm

Oh believe me, I whole-assed my part. I just suck at XY Hehe

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by roflmaoqwerty on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:39 pm

Cereal wrote:Oh believe me, I whole-assed my part. I just suck at XY Hehe
>Everyone makes good parts in an XY collab
>Sheldon makes a part after them
>Everyone else instantly thinks they suck

Stern but Fair 

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Rafael on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:53 pm

rabid squirrel wrote:
Shotoku wrote:*insert pyramid quote*
I think it goes without saying that you shouldn't sacrifice flow, cohesiveness, and overall entertainment for doing something that is just insane skillwise.
This basically is a tl;dr of what I'm about to type.

While I didn't really dislike everything before sheldon and HP... I didn't feel like it fit very well with the ending. It was two completely different things, and it didn't feel like a vision being executed like the middle section of The Well-Tempered Manual, but rather... disjointed and unplanned.

So while Sheldon and HP's parts are technically insane, and definitely game changers for XYs in the future, I really don't like this track much as a whole (not just because of the music either, I watched rofl's re-edit with noisa). They don't match the track that comes before them - especially splash's part right before sheldon's part, there's a huge skill jump for no real reason - but also a lot of the stuff before that too feels like Bosh is just sort of killing time, and that doesn't make it very engaging. A good omnitrack has parts that are less intense but equally engaging (think centrifugal force or handlebars) and this had, like, 70% stuff that maybe wasn't actually half-assed, but felt to me like it was a lot of the time. I liked the roborant-style moment, but a lot of the rest was the same slow tossing around of Bosh that all pretty much felt like it was just filling up space. Maybe this was because nobody expected sheldon's part to be as ridiculous as it was, but while that might be accurate it's an excuse and doesn't make it an enjoyable final product.

The reason I'm being so harsh is that this is primarily directed at you, boo, because this is your first project direction experience. Directing a project is tough because you need to 1) correctly judge who will be good at stuff, and save it for the right moments 2) figure out how to not let the best stuff overshadow the lesser stuff with smooth transitions between different people 3) figure out how to make the less intense stuff still interesting in different ways and 4) have a standard that you require people to meet, and not being afraid of cutting out half-assed parts. This collab had some amazing potential going for it, and it has some crazy moments but it doesn't hold together as a whole as well as it could have.

Also I want to take a moment to defend opal. the last parts are engaging from a technical perspective, but from a pure entertainment/immersion perspective it comes out of nowhere and is such a drastic change the reaction is "what is this and why is it here" instead of something like "oooooohh!" or "wheeeee!" WTM's crazy quirk section made me laugh out loud and actually applaud (I actually physically applauded the first time I watched it) while the first time I saw this I was like "whoa what" in a mostly-just-confused way.

okay long post. This was so far a critique of boo's project direction mostly. Sheldon, awesome technical job but maybe think less about showing everyone your skills (read: insane amount of work put in for a single second) and more about fitting into the vision of the track/project. HP, your part was actually my favorite because it fit more nicely even if sheldon's was more powerful. Boo, I loved your roborant moment and was sad we didn't have more of that in the middle, which could have made the track a lot more interesting overall.

sorry for typing a novel. rabid out.
Just because not everybody thinks the same as you doesn't mean they don't understand what's going on in the track. Damn rabid, don't you have any discretion about giving your opinion? Giving tips on how you think someone can improve is what everybody does, but you bring it all like you know your shit better than everybody else.

Well rabid, my question is: What naked track have you made of any importance? Yes, you've organized a lot and you're good at that, but how much experience have you actually got in trying to execute what you have in mind? I am not in the position to criticize amazing scenery works properly, because I don't have any experience in scening myself. You can have your thoughts but you have to accept the fact that you don't know enough about what you're trying to get a nuanced opinion about. Opal Rider is a good example of how you won't piss off players of which their amazing efforts didn't pay off well enough according to you.

For me, this XY is without a doubt the best XY made so far. I can perfectly see the ideas boo had in mind and how well those ideas well actually executed by the trackmakers. The only thing that's not in perfect symmetry with what I think should have been symmetrical was Sheldon and Helios' parts compared to Splash's. Or actually, Splash's part with the parts that came after (but who could've predicted what would've come after that?). Sheldon, HP, you have outdone yourself and I admire your will to keep forcing the borders of Line Rider further outwards. It's you guys that make it that this game never gets boring. Amazing job. Boo, great job on making this happen. It's something many people can learn of, including myself I think. Everyone else definitely added to this track in their own way. It never got boring and even made me shit bricks at the end. 96/100 to me.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by OTDE on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:08 am

If you're looking for a track review go to the green text.
Rafael wrote:
rabid squirrel wrote:
Shotoku wrote:*insert pyramid quote*
I think it goes without saying that you shouldn't sacrifice flow, cohesiveness, and overall entertainment for doing something that is just insane skillwise.
-Snip-
-Snip snip-
I didn't find any of rabid's post particularly off-putting. Do I just have particularly thick skin? I don't see why everyone's going boo-hoo when someone takes the time to completely articulate their feelings and explain why they didn't like your track. I think it's a gift, frankly. When someone takes the time to to write up a post detailing their concerns, it shows they care enough about the track (and me as a trackmaker) to let me know what I could change, should I feel compelled to.

.boo, on Hymn, wrote:I hate when I feel like this but.. I'm the opposite of what everyone else is saying. Reasons why?

-Recording was so zoomed out that any feelings of smoothness or flowiness were gone. (I know it sounds bad to rag on a track because of the recording, but it makes a big difference to me)
-The emotional appeal you guys seem to be talking about had no affect on me.
-There were only a few key moments in this that were pretty cool but not eye-poppingly amazing like 0:22, and 0:50 as rabid said.
-The flow felt very 2008. With manuquirks that are kind of condensed in the sense that they go through the same area throughout the whole duration, just in different directions, need a more constant manual-style flow with some quirk tricks. (Check sum/cereal/instinct. They really depend more on the manuals more than the quirk. Why? Because they're better at it. :P) The stop n goes the way they were executed in this kind of killed it for me. D:
-The quirk/tricks demonstrated in this felt average at best, and it was kind of predictable.

Sorry bud. ;_; It might just be personal preference.
That certainly didn't feel very nice to hear. But look! Things I can try out! I can work on everything he says or none of it at all. But then there's

Decent, but nothing impressive.
I know, sorry, HP, I'm just using it as an example.
This pisses me off. All I get out of this is that the person really just doesn't find my track particularly appealing for no reason at all.
TL;DR You're allowed to have nonpositive opinions or thoughts about a track. Also, you don't have to be an XY expert to criticize XY.

Okay, I'm done ranting. On to the track.

That was pretty sweet! I liked the intro especially, probably because I'm a manuals guy and I just sort of have a line-rider crush on Georgio anyways. The beginning XY, following that, felt very controlled. I really enjoy watching a well-put together section of XY, and Kramwood's part in particular felt very cohesive. The Roborantish stuff was fantastic, playing around with airtime in the boundaries that line set in place... the ending got all of my wats. The good ones.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Rafael on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:40 am

You're missing the point, OTDE.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Opal Rider on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:34 am

I saw the same point as he did.Neutral Maybe you could try and re-explain it, so that we know what we somehow missed?

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:26 pm

Hi there Raf.
Just because not everybody thinks the same as you...
Not sure I can say anything about this one.
you bring it all like you know your shit better than everybody else
Whoa there, slow down, take a deep breath. I am in no way ever claiming that I know better than anyone and if I ever do, please smack me upside the face. Typing a long post =/= I think my opinion is better than everyone else's. I just think more people should articulate their feedback in detail so I do it myself in hopes others will as well. And hopefully I won't just get people bashing my review because they diagree.... :/
What naked track have you made of any importance?
Once again, hold your horses there. First of all, the vast majority of my review was of the art direction involved with the project, which I honestly believe I have more experience than anyone else in. (esp for boo because this is his first real project direction) (art direction = planning out a project, yelling at people to make parts, etc) The rest of the review was from the perspective of a casual viewer (read: someone who can't quirk but likes watching them) By no means am I ever attempting to give advice on how to technically improve anything, I obviously can't. Often times a casual viewer perspective is important, so we make tracks that more than just a handful of people can enjoy. If you think it's well executed, and I don't, that basically says (without taking more opinions into account) that the track appeals more to an experienced player than a casual viewer. This doesn't make it an objectively bad track or even that I think it was an objectively bad track, just that you liked it and I didn't.

Also, I would like to say that I did already react to sheldon's part in the LCC section. so he already knows I think he's insane Smile And I've been thanking boo for running this project for a long time. I'm not saying this shouldn't have been created, just thinking about future projects and how to make them better.

Also thanks OTDE.

That said, boo, if you could let me know how you reacted to my post that would be great. I don't want to cause any harm.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by CleverAnimal on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:57 pm

Wizzy wrote:I have to complain about the music. That was really unpleasant to listen to.
I liked it. Smile

The track was fucking insane though! Very impressive. Inverted Onoz

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by roflmaoqwerty on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:55 pm

Kramwood wrote:
-snip snip snippety
*insert rant*


I honestly just wanted to see how long this would be if I just multi-quoted them all
Oh you

I think you handled this discussion the best out of anyone so far 8D 

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Hedgehogs4Me on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:19 pm

I love how whenever anyone comes out with an XY that, let's be honest, doesn't make any logical sense because physics just got thrown out the window, we suddenly go from commenting "Nice track, I liked it!" to being art critics. Almost never does this happen with any other genre, even when the track is ridiculous.

And let me tell you, this was ridiculous. It was really two tracks, but that second one... DAMN.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Hedgehogs4Me on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:04 pm

Kramwood wrote:
Hedgehogs4Me wrote:Almost never does this happen with any other genre, even when the track is ridiculous.
Except for my tracks. they apparently don't have any vision.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Votale on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:46 am

I have no idea what this vision thing is everyone is talking about.. Because I sure as hell don't have any of that. rofl
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by gaoyubao on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:56 am

And that's why unicorns don't exist.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Stallie on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:12 pm

Wow this is amazing, I love it. The density, flow, speed, rotation, all make this track look amazing. I hope you guys will be making more tracks soon like this.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:50 pm

Hedgehogs4Me wrote:I love how whenever anyone comes out with an XY that, let's be honest, doesn't make any logical sense because physics just got thrown out the window, we suddenly go from commenting "Nice track, I liked it!" to being art critics. Almost never does this happen with any other genre, even when the track is ridiculous.
it's just me. And it happens every track that is different that what came before in some way, not just XY (dunno where you got that)
Votale wrote:I have no idea what this vision thing is everyone is talking about.. Because I sure as hell don't have any of that. rofl
Basically, did the track have a clear structure? Did it feel like the whole big picture of it was planned out well? Did this structure engage and entertain?

Sometimes a track appears to have vision when it was just "eh whatever" because it happens to end up being structured nicely. Tis not uncommon. Like Roborant.

Kram no offense but you tend to just do stuff as you go in tracks, and then slap a mediocre ending on it and be done. Not really any planning or structure. (Doesn't necessarily make the track bad of course Smile but it doesn't help)

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by LineMagiX on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:54 pm

I don't even care about what you think of how I put my tracks together anymore. I don't care if the music took away from any your track-making experience. I don't care about the arguments stemming from your guys' oh so strong opinions on tracks, both if it's for or against the track.

I had a plan for this track from day one and all that matters to me is that I love the way it turned out. All anyone cares about is letting everyone else know that their track isn't perfect and if they put it together they would have done it differently. And you know what? I don't care about how you would've done it otherwise and I would rather not hear it. But I know you can't keep yourself from letting everyone know your high and mighty opinion, so it's okay. Smile

This track turned out exactly how I wanted, and I am so proud of all the work and diversity put in by everyone.

EDIT: There's your reaction

EDIT 2:

Kramwood wrote:
anyway. That doesn't mean that I don't have vision when I make tracks. it's just not the same vision you have.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH


Last edited by ~boo on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Rafael on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:32 pm

rabid squirrel wrote:Hi there Raf.
What naked track have you made of any importance?
Once again, hold your horses there. First of all, the vast majority of my review was of the art direction involved with the project, which I honestly believe I have more experience than anyone else in.
Now this is exactly what I'm on about. I don't know where you got the idea from that you are the best at this. Sorry rabid, but I don't think you have as much experience as you think you have. You've made a lot of projects happen and always seem to be able to get people to work on something they would/should work on, but you haven't directed a lot of artistic work. The only ones I remember is EoLR and Bolted to the Wall (a very early stage).

rabid squirrel wrote:(esp for boo because this is his first real project direction) (art direction = planning out a project, yelling at people to make parts, etc) The rest of the review was from the perspective of a casual viewer (read: someone who can't quirk but likes watching them)
Now what I'm trying to say is that the tips you give are purely for how you would make a track. Boo has created his own style in this and so have you, Cereal, Helios and "even" Kramwood. And if you don't understand their "vision", that doesn't mean they've done something wrong or can improve anything (which is what you often tempt to imply).
rabid squirrel wrote:By no means am I ever attempting to give advice on how to technically improve anything, I obviously can't. Often times a casual viewer perspective is important, so we make tracks that more than just a handful of people can enjoy. If you think it's well executed, and I don't, that basically says (without taking more opinions into account) that the track appeals more to an experienced player than a casual viewer. This doesn't make it an objectively bad track or even that I think it was an objectively bad track, just that you liked it and I didn't.
I never said anything about technability, but anyway.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:30 pm

@kram - sorry that came out pretty harsh and this is probably not the place. >.<

@boo - sorry you feel that way. I hoped you would get something out of it. Considering negative feedback is not easy but I think it's important especially large collabs like this. Sorry you don't feel the same way. Don't let me stop you from directing/bumping/organizing more projects in the future though.

@Raf - Two macapples tracks (one failed), two lcc tracks that failed, hackers on speed, four community scenery projects, EoLRS, infinite profusion scened, sempiternal, somewhat on the other two MBF tracks I was involved in... the three current MBF tracks... not counting the fact that I regularly keep up with all LCC projects for the last 5 years (and have witnessed plenty that died and/or were released but were disasters and nobody speaks of them and why) and regularly watch people on the livestream (windowed in the lower right of my screen basically all the time when I'm active). Not sure why you mentioned Bolted, I wouldn't count that, it was a solo project.

@Raf again, I never gave tips on how I would personally make the parts, only gave feedback based on how I perceived it (any thing veering close to technical, e.g. "hp's part was less intense but fit better") I kept extremely brief because I know I do not have the know how. Since you and I both KNOW that my opinion does not include technical knowledge, why all the outrage against it? Just laugh quietly to yourself about how ignorant I am and move on. Better yet, detail why you thought the track was technically great and ignore my review and have everyone go "I agree with raf and disagree with rabid". That would be awesome.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by LineMagiX on Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:40 pm

rabid squirrel wrote:
Rafael wrote:you bring it all like you know your shit better than everybody else
Whoa there, slow down, take a deep breath.
Maybe you actually need to hear this, Rabid? Have you ever thought that maybe your high and mighty opinionated reviews actually annoy people more than they help them?  Have you ever wondered why so many people argue with you or get frustrated with how you respond to them?

And the only thing I've gotten from your reviews are that I lack this imaginary trackmaking thing called "vision", because apparently no matter how I do it, it's just planned out well enough. Now how the hell I supposed to improve on that if what I do is exactly what I'm going for, but not gone about how YOU would have done.

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but please don't review my tracks anymore. It doesn't help me, and it would save you a lot of time. Smile

And I still respect you and how much you help with keeping the LCC on track, I just can't stand your reviews.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:14 pm

~boo wrote:what I do is exactly what I'm going for
I guess this is where we differ. I am very proud of what I do but it is never exactly what I am going for. There is always room for improvement.

EDIT: I never intend to come off as high and mighty. But I'm not going to stop reviewing because I am perceived that way.

EDIT2: thought about this for a bit and I think that when I talk about vision, it should be taken as, like, rabid squirrel's perception of vision. Which may or may not be similar to other people's perception of vision. I am fully aware that these are not things that can be quantified objectively. Actually nothing I talk about in reviews of quirks is. (which makes me an easy target, really)


Last edited by rabid squirrel on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by efrazable on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:25 pm

Maybe we can stop debating with the third page... just sayin.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by Rafael on Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:42 am

rabid squirrel wrote:@Raf - Two macapples tracks (one failed), two lcc tracks that failed, hackers on speed, four community scenery projects, EoLRS, infinite profusion scened, sempiternal, somewhat on the other two MBF tracks I was involved in... the three current MBF tracks... not counting the fact that I regularly keep up with all LCC projects for the last 5 years (and have witnessed plenty that died and/or were released but were disasters and nobody speaks of them and why) and regularly watch people on the livestream (windowed in the lower right of my screen basically all the time when I'm active). Not sure why you mentioned Bolted, I wouldn't count that, it was a solo project.
Neither of those tracks have any artistic value (or vision, however you want to call it), and if they do have it, that wasn't because you told them to create that but the player who made that part made his part that way. You get people to work on the art they create, but I haven't seen you create any tracks that express your vision. Bolted can be used as an example, but that was very early.
rabid squirrel wrote:@Raf again, I never gave tips on how I would personally make the parts, only gave feedback based on how I perceived it (any thing veering close to technical, e.g. "hp's part was less intense but fit better") I kept extremely brief because I know I do not have the know how. Since you and I both KNOW that my opinion does not include technical knowledge, why all the outrage against it? Just laugh quietly to yourself about how ignorant I am and move on. Better yet, detail why you thought the track was technically great and ignore my review and have everyone go "I agree with raf and disagree with rabid". That would be awesome.
I'd laugh about it if you didn't bring your opinion as the absolute and only right way to do it. And I still don't get where you get the whole technical thing from. That is in no way relevant here.
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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by roflmaoqwerty on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:39 pm

efrazable wrote:Maybe we can stop debating with the third page... just sayin.
^This.
If I put all of you guys in a room you'd kill each other in three minutes.

Come on. Art critique is a dangerous field because pointing out "flaws" in another's work is both very objective and usually not well received by the artist. Reviews are bound to piss people off. The arguments that stem from such anger are completely unnecessary, though. Everyone has been burned by unfavourable reviews at one point or another; it's just up to them to withhold that resentment instead of letting it boil over into a rant and argument. I'm not naming names, and I'm not saying that any one party is to blame for this all-too-frequent discord. Just please, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it; a little negative critique is fine, just so long as it's done politely and presented in a clear, concise, non-offensive manner.

Also, please don't start an argument about why arguing is necessary. Are you fuckin' kidding me?

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

Post by rabid squirrel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:00 pm

Rafael wrote:[None] of those tracks have any artistic value
That hurts.

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Re: Limitations - The LCC

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