Re: Unleashed progress thread. (Previously Line Rider C progress thread.)

[TheRevTastic]

I would love to have a ctrl + s hotkey to save the current track, so yeah basically like saving files in photoshop/adobe programs.

[[senpai] kevans]

Definitely have a save as function.

Now how does this save? Same 9 variables as flash? If possible you should make it use as much little information as possible. I think you should remove the start line save variable, and just have the start point save separate. I say this because from looking at the code, being a save line or not a save line is a variable, which is quite pointless and a waste of information.

I've also had this idea sitting in the back of my head for some time.

As a possible way to reduce lag, have the editor not draw the lines outside the screen size, and when the line shows up or enters the area slightly larger than the screen, it will load that line. I say load is because if you use the ram to remember the line, it will cause serious lag. maybe a simple code that's like if (-15,-20) is visible, then load lines in said visible quadrant? Then when the user presses play, it will load the entire track and simulate it.

[rabid squirrel]

Now how does this save? Same 9 variables as flash? If possible you should make it use as much little information as possible. I think you should remove the start line save variable, and just have the start point save separate. I say this because from looking at the code, being a save line or not a save line is a variable, which is quite pointless and a waste of information.

Sounds like a really good idea

+1 opinion of kevans's coding ability

I've also had this idea sitting in the back of my head for some time.

As a possible way to reduce lag, have the editor not draw the lines outside the screen size, and when the line shows up or enters the area slightly larger than the screen, it will load that line. I say load is because if you use the ram to remember the line, it will cause serious lag. maybe a simple code that's like if (-15,-20) is visible, then load lines in said visible quadrant? Then when the user presses play, it will load the entire track and simulate it.

Could be tricky, but if you could pull it off this would be wonderful

[Rafael]

Also, it's not like you have to use them if you're too short sighted to realise their potential - you have single sided standard and accel lines.

So if we don't like the idea of double sided lines we're too short sighted to see their potential? The reason I don't like the idea of double sided lines is BECAUSE they have so much potential and will completely change the game (and for me, ruin it). >___>

[[senpai] kevans]

Also, it's not like you have to use them if you're too short sighted to realise their potential - you have single sided standard and accel lines.

So if we don't like the idea of double sided lines we're too short sighted to see their potential? The reason I don't like the idea of double sided lines is BECAUSE they have so much potential and will completely change the game (and for me, ruin it). >___>

What seems to always bother me is that people say they want all this cool and use full stuff, and will personally tell me what they wan't, yet when I announce a certain feature, they then say they won't use it. It pisses me off. Same thing goes here. I bet Mhenr feel the same way about this for what you are doing Raf. The only argument I can use against you is: DON"T USE IT THEN.

[hypothet]

Again, maybe strip one version of some of its features to make people happy?

When complete, of course. Then people won't complain because the feature will or won't be on the version they prefer.

[Conundrumer]

kevan, may I suggest directly speaking to mhenr18 via IM if you want to make suggestions and criticisms. I've been talking to him about his progress for the past month and he keeps bugging me about the speed boosts he keeps getting :| but still really awesome.

About saving lines: Besides how the amount of space the save file takes up is really insignificant (in terms of both speed and space), mhenr already has good programming style (ie organized and meaningful code, unlike fsk), so it won't be a problem.

About rendering lines: I actually used the technique you described in my version, but anyways. He already turned the process of rendering into panning a bitmap around, which takes a lot less processing power than rerendering vector graphics repeatedly. In addition, he turned the physics to non-real time so that the physics computation takes place before rendering/playback so there's even more speed boost there.

FYI I'm not idolizing mhenr or anything, I'm just making it clear that he knows what he's doing (in terms of programming and efficiency), and I understand everything he's doing.

I also have to emphasize that building Line Rider from scratch means completely circumventing a lot of problems the original version had, so you have to imagine this version as a completely new program as opposed to just an upgrade.

Also, it's not like you have to use them if you're too short sighted to realise their potential - you have single sided standard and accel lines.

So if we don't like the idea of double sided lines we're too short sighted to see their potential? The reason I don't like the idea of double sided lines is BECAUSE they have so much potential and will completely change the game (and for me, ruin it). >___>

Who's to judge?
Can someone make a new thread for a discussion on the controversy of new features?

Again, maybe strip one version of some of its features to make people happy?

When complete, of course. Then people won't complain because the feature will or won't be on the version they prefer.

For people involved with software development, having everything in one version is usually a lot easier to manage than having two separate versions. Two versions with minor differences (eg the double-sided line tool unavailable) will almost double the effort towards updating and bug fixing. It's simply inefficient.

[rabid squirrel]

What seems to always bother me is that people say they want all this cool and use full stuff, and will personally tell me what they wan't, yet when I announce a certain feature, they then say they won't use it. It pisses me off.

That's because these are two groups of people. People who stopped playing along time ago due to boredom and people who are new and overwhelmed by the skill of others will say they want new features, and people who are good at it will say they don't want new features.

As long as it doesn't modify the physics, I'm fine with a completely new version, but us in the crowd that don't want new features would REALLY like a 6.8 (6.7 with fixes, no new features) and what really makes me mad is that that should be fast and simple compared to all the crazy stuff you guys are doing (I haven't been told otherwise), but it's just not happening. It's so annoying.

[mhenr18]

What seems to always bother me is that people say they want all this cool and use full stuff, and will personally tell me what they wan't, yet when I announce a certain feature, they then say they won't use it. It pisses me off.

That's because these are two groups of people. People who stopped playing along time ago due to boredom and people who are new and overwhelmed by the skill of others will say they want new features, and people who are good at it will say they don't want new features.

As long as it doesn't modify the physics, I'm fine with a completely new version, but us in the crowd that don't want new features would REALLY like a 6.8 (6.7 with fixes, no new features) and what really makes me mad is that that should be fast and simple compared to all the crazy stuff you guys are doing (I haven't been told otherwise), but it's just not happening. It's so annoying.

It's hardly skill if you sit there like a monkey drawing and erasing lines until you finally contort bosh into the position you want. It's just patience. That's why people stopped playing, it gets boring doing the same old things over and over again. That's why I'm not doing a "6.8". It's a waste of my time because I'm catering to an ever-dwindling crowd. It would be fast and simple to implement. Sure, you got me. But why bother? There's like 20 people max who want just bugfixes and nothing new. 20 people. A "6.8" would also suffer from the same unavoidable things that are a result of Line Rider being coded in an outdated interpreted language. It'd be laggy (I can't even maximise 6.7 on my 27" iMac and get 40fps with one line. That's a joke), it'd still be using corruptable .sol files that get hidden 50 folders down in the filesystem and it'd still be incompatible across different machines and player versions (because people don't realise that they should use the latest versions of players and then everything might actually work. I see people streaming using FP8 and then laugh when they complain about incompatibility).

You guys won with the single-sided acceleration lines, and made me realise that I should ensure that Unleashed contains the full feature set of 6.7. However, I'm going for more than what 20 people want. I'm going for things that make for an awesome and seriously powerful toy that stays true to the simplistic spirit of the original. See, I don't do things I'm not proud of. I was proud to release my builds a few years ago when it was all cutting edge, but if I released something similar now I wouldn't be proud of it. There's so much more that LR can be without making the same mistakes that inXile did with Unbound. That's where I'm going.


Oh, if people are so annoyed that a 6.8 doesn't exist and they really care about it, they've had 2+ years to decompile 6.7 and build it. I didn't complain about things when 6.2 started getting old. I did something about it. I learnt how to program and started building new versions when I was 14 years old. If you're really passionate about something, do something about it.

[rabid squirrel]

That's why I'm not doing a "6.8". It's a waste of my time because I'm catering to an ever-dwindling crowd. It would be fast and simple to implement. Sure, you got me. But why bother? There's like 20 people max who want just bugfixes and nothing new. 20 people.

Do you really think you're going to have an audience larger than that with your new version?

Also, if I practice something in a repetitive manner to get better at it, that makes me a monkey? As a musician, I highly disagree with that. A monkey can't play an instrument. A monkey can't make a Line Rider track. Both are an ART.

Also also, I get 40fps up to 2,000 lines on my MacBook Pro. I dunno what your mac is smoking.

[mhenr18]

That's why I'm not doing a "6.8". It's a waste of my time because I'm catering to an ever-dwindling crowd. It would be fast and simple to implement. Sure, you got me. But why bother? There's like 20 people max who want just bugfixes and nothing new. 20 people.

Do you really think you're going to have an audience larger than that with your new version?

Also, if I practice something in a repetitive manner to get better at it, that makes me a monkey? As a musician, I highly disagree with that. A monkey can't play an instrument. A monkey can't make a Line Rider track. Both are an ART.

Also also, I get 40fps up to 2,000 lines on my MacBook Pro. I dunno what your mac is smoking.

I'll be releasing on the Mac App Store and Steam. If there's no drive to get a larger audience than you won't get it - even if I don't I've still got to want the larger audience.

Yeah, but LR right now is like a recorder. There's only so much you can do with it. It's still impressive when you do something amazing with it, but the instrument doesn't allow for the full range of expression and pitch that a flute has. What would you rather listen to, a talented recorder player or a talented flute player? An analogy that would probably be even more apt is going from the harpsichord to the piano. Same fundamentals, each can sound great when played by a professional, but you know which one you'd choose to play.

I can get 40fps for 2000 lines on my iMac with a smaller window. I have a 3.4GHz quad core i7 and 16GB of RAM, but Flash isn't capable of driving my 2560x1440 display at 40fps. That's the problem.
(also it's kinda pathetic that modern computers only get 40fps for 2000 lines. That's why I went to C/OpenGL, to get massive performance increases)

[Rafael]

Mhenr, I haven't even seen 5 people who WANT new features. And for new people, this new version of yours would be
1. Just as new as the old version of LR.
2. Even more complicated than 6.7
3. Just as laggy as people start making big tracks when they've become much better at the game (and that'd be the moment where people will notice).

[Hedgehogs4Me]

^
1) You get bored of less features quirker than more features. That isn't to say that there should be as many features as possible, but I'm willing to accept a few more, as long as it doesn't become overcomplicated, which brings me to the second point.
2) Have you seen the GUI? Certainly cleaner and simpler than most games.
3) This seems suspiciously like "We shouldn't add safety features to cars, because it'll encourage people to drive faster, so it'll be just as dangerous anyways!" Less lag is always a good thing, in my book.

[mhenr18]

Mhenr, I haven't even seen 5 people who WANT new features. And for new people, this new version of yours would be
1. Just as new as the old version of LR.
2. Even more complicated than 6.7
3. Just as laggy as people start making big tracks when they've become much better at the game (and that'd be the moment where people will notice).

have you not seen the posts where i've had millions of lines loaded with no lag?

[Rafael]

^ My point is that it won't help NEW people because they won't make such huge tracks anyway. It might help for people who want to make massive projects but you can decrease the lag in 6.8 as well.
Also, you're ignoring my other points.

[KillinTime2792]

Mhenr, I haven't even seen 5 people who WANT new features. And for new people, this new version of yours would be
1. Just as new as the old version of LR. cept it would have more flexability, while not necaserry is a nice thing to have
2. Even more complicated than 6.7 complicated is what you make of it, to a new person gravity wells, slagwells, kramuals, manuals, etc etc are all VERY complicated
3. Just as laggy as people start making big tracks when they've become much better at the game (and that'd be the moment where people will notice).

have you not seen the posts where i've had millions of lines loaded with no lag?

anyway;

2nd peg and the nose points don't have friction applied to them.

not 100% positive but i'm fairly certain the 2nd peg has the MOST friction out of any contact point, mind you checking for hand/foot/ass friction is basically impossible.

[Hedgehogs4Me]

2nd peg, butt, and shoulder are weird-as-ass (nopun) contact points, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if, indeed, 2nd peg doesn't have friction applied to it, but instead has something else that is really bizarre going on.

[KillinTime2792]

well i haven't actually checked the code but judging from the fact that traveling on the second peg slows bosh down to all hell would lead me to believe there is a massive amount of friction being applied.

[Hedgehogs4Me]

The second peg also happens to speed him up when touching the line in several positions. I'm more inclined to believe it's just that backwards.

[KillinTime2792]

the second peg doesn't actually speed him up, it's the shoulder applying outward pressure, which forces bosh inward (sortof like a reverse gravity well) speeding him up.

bah w/e too tired to think about this stuff now, gonna go sleeps

[rabid squirrel]

the second peg doesn't actually speed him up, it's the shoulder applying outward pressure, which forces bosh inward (sortof like a reverse gravity well) speeding him up.

sorry, H4M is right. it slows you down when both pegs are touching but no friction if it's ONLY the 2nd peg (and speeds you up if the shoulder is involved)

[Conundrumer]

On the issue of double sided lines allowing ridiculous grinding (eg on the shoulder), mhenr and I contemplated on turning the body of LR a solid line (via dynamic line physics) to prevent that from happening. This will only happen for double sided lines. LR would still act normally when interacting with single-sided lines. thoughts?

[KillinTime2792]

hey guys, this new linetype will allow for some wack tricks, so we're gonna make it so you can't do it. your thoughts?

[[senpai] kevans]

Oh, if people are so annoyed that a 6.8 doesn't exist and they really care about it, they've had 2+ years to decompile 6.7 and build it. I didn't complain about things when 6.2 started getting old. I did something about it. I learnt how to program and started building new versions when I was 14 years old. If you're really passionate about something, do something about it.

I agree with this. Another reason I get pissed. If you want something done right, do it yourself.

That's why I'm not doing a "6.8". It's a waste of my time because I'm catering to an ever-dwindling crowd. It would be fast and simple to implement. Sure, you got me. But why bother? There's like 20 people max who want just bugfixes and nothing new. 20 people.

Do you really think you're going to have an audience larger than that with your new version?

Also, if I practice something in a repetitive manner to get better at it, that makes me a monkey? As a musician, I highly disagree with that. A monkey can't play an instrument. A monkey can't make a Line Rider track. Both are an ART.

Also also, I get 40fps up to 2,000 lines on my MacBook Pro. I dunno what your mac is smoking.

You say that like there is going to be a huge battle between V3 and C. Honestly, we all know who's going to win and it's the C version . Infact, if Mhenr releases C before V3, I'm not finishing v3. Unless people still want it which I doubt.

[mhenr18]

^ My point is that it won't help NEW people because they won't make such huge tracks anyway. It might help for people who want to make massive projects but you can decrease the lag in 6.8 as well.
Also, you're ignoring my other points.

I'm ignoring your other points because theyre pointless. Also, 1 line isn't a huge track and that lags at 2560x1440 on a very powerful mac. You can't reduce lag in a 6.8. Do you think I'm that stupid to have had ways to decrease lag over the years and not used them?

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