BRAGGADOCIO

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BRAGGADOCIO

Post by OTDE on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:05 am


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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Conundrumer on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:19 am

0:46-1:09 swegsewgswgswegswgswegswegswegswegswegswegwgsgigojsergoerjguahgiuaehuigahgihe

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by rabid squirrel on Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:38 am

Thing I compiled
Spoiler:
"I felt like the 'safe' way was chosen. It seemed to me you refrained from adding experimental features in order to maintain a perfect execution." - Rafael

"There were a few bits, especially near the beginning, which felt ever-so-slightly sloppy and kind of went against the spirit of the track." - FlagCapper

"If people weren't going so deep in their interpretation, this would not be worth it as a track" - Dapianokid

"Rabid... actively advocates against quirk and regards it as something perverse and crude... it feels like throwing away many years of line rider culture" - Anton

"Well I still don't see all the hype, all I experience is boredom when I see this track. Oh well, but my comment will be ignored because the only type of 'criticism' rabid will accept is positive." - Sheldon

"ehh, it's ok." - Shammies

"So Rabid is a sellout now?" - TheColdRider

"Please don't drag any drama here" - kevansevans

"Authorities have spoken, demanded your pure devotion
Monetize to the ground while the falcons of murder close in
I chose to go guano, y'all know, kinda bat shit
The bright lights of fuckery stuck in the automatic

I'm a little black spot on a sun of lies
But I'm not too high to say I'm the truth
I line the thread to catch blood like a Bateman
Nothing sacred I’ll mace a play pen
Rabid squirrel bitch make the name stick
Not for sale but I'm takin' payments"

- El-P / Rabid

74,647 scenery lines
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0 fucks given

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Helios Pavonine on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:01 am

Shocked

My new favorite track. It's got it all.

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Apple on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:22 am

That was a really cool idea. I loved how all of the lines were connected and the track was just great to begin with. And that animation was great, Rabid. I had to watch the whole thing a few times because it's kind of hard to wrap my head around all of it.
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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Rafael on Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:17 pm

That was really good. I love the transition into the animation. During the animation, the misalignment of the words per frame and the fact that the words got bigger as the song progressed put a lot of power in your message, to the point where it almost felt agressive.
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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Z_N-Freak on Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:17 pm

Totally missed out on the message initially and just got completely overwhelmed by the cool song & syncs and the amazing power that just emanates from every line. Then I re watched and I was like shiiiiiiii... This track is dank as duck. The propaganda is strong with this one, and I like it! Very Happy

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by anton on Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:52 pm

Thing I compiled
SPOILER:

"Oh my gosh, that tail manual was beautiful. The whole thing was beautiful, but that part made me smile stupidly" - shua

"this was wonderfully choreographed, good job guys (:" - Conun

"No hostility, just love. " - Anton

"Like the rest of the comments, the green tail manual was easily my favorite part of the entire thing, but I found all of it very soothing to watch" - Opal

"I liked it" - Sheldon

"This track is probably my favorite release since V3, for that. Wow." - Dap

"because of your experimenting you (both you and rabid) are two one of my favourite players at the moment." - Rafael

"I like being a part of this community  Very Happy " - ZNF

"I think this is a beautiful, well-crafted and genuine track" - Helios

"Overall, I think it's a really nice and calming piece that has a good feeling throughout. It was a pleasure to watch Very Happy " - Delisammich

"THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL" - Shiny

"I loved that. I didn't love it because of the dank LR tricks, although there were definitely some cool parts, but rather I liked it because of its vibe and tone" - AC

Only cared enough to look through one thread. It's all from Daisies.
I am not trying to pick a fight here, but y'know.. if negativity is what you look for, negativity is what you'll find.

This track was so good. You guys have left me speechless once again. Some of the messyness feels too rushed, but generally a very impressive release. Great animation too. perfect font and style for the vibe and intensity. KEEP DOING THIS. Also, otde, I am not sure how good this track is on a technical level, but it simply DOESN'T MATTER. This I think, is a result of a solid concept that is executed well.

Out of curiousity: is the text/animation meant to convey any specific message? Very interested in your guys' (otde & rabid's especially) thoughts here.

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Z_N-Freak on Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:28 am

@ Anton
Seems clear to me that they are referring to the fact that everyone is doing quirk. You hear the singer:

"Lie, cheat, steal, kill, win, win"; which in the track shows as:
FLING, CHAIN, STACK, TRACK, QUIRK, QUIRK

Which I interpret in the way that they think it's not the right thing to do (just like you wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, kill, to win win), but people are forced into this because everybody else is doing it (just like it says in the song). It's a vicious circle that's hard to break out of (which is what the song is about).

Essentially they are comparing the thug life to quirk. Maybe a bit over the top, but it's just so well done I love it!

Also, I searched for more songs from this artist, because I really like the music and am loving their self-titled album release. Will look up other albums as well. Usually not much into rap, but there is a lot of power and variance in their songs, which I find refreshing from the (I think) more typical simplistic beats used in rap music.

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by rich on Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:18 am

This is now one of my favorite tracks. I think you guys did a great job, and the feeling the track has is very exciting! I love it. I've already watched it quite a few times, and I will continue to watch this with my coffee every morning.

Code:
I very much enjoyed this; I've already watched it twice. I liked this because it had a very fun and exciting feel along with the song of a rap beat, riddling rhymes over granual speed and quirk goodness. The scenery went by very fast and even though it didn't have a "great scenic scene," the scenery itself added a huge amount to the feeling of the track. I hope to see more of these because this has got to be one of my favorite tracks of this year. Keep riding rabid, and OTDE; I enjoy it up the yinyam.
-me on reddit.
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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by rabid squirrel on Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:46 pm

@Z_N-Freak wrote:Seems clear to me that they are referring to the fact that everyone is doing quirk. You hear the singer:

"Lie, cheat, steal, kill, win, win"; which in the track shows as:
FLING, CHAIN, STACK, TRACK, QUIRK, QUIRK

Which I interpret in the way that they think it's not the right thing to do (just like you wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, kill, to win win), but people are forced into this because everybody else is doing it (just like it says in the song). It's a vicious circle that's hard to break out of (which is what the song is about).

Essentially they are comparing the thug life to quirk. Maybe a bit over the top, but it's just so well done I love it!


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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Chuggers on Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:00 pm

well i cant get behind the message but i liked the track a lot

also the text at the end is VERY well done
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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Orthuss on Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:50 pm

I've probably watched this like 7 times already. I really dig the way the scenery and speed gradually built up like a crescendo into madness or some figure of speech like that. I love how the heavily decorated lines put more focus into the movement itself than the tricks. And I love me some shoulder manuals. Speaking of buildup, I loved seeing an animated monument at the end with a message behind it. I really like this as a track and a watching experience.


Last edited by Orthuss on Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:22 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Conundrumer on Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:58 pm

@Orthuss wrote:heavily decorated lines

this is it, folks, this is the future of scenery

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WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

Post by OTDE on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:19 pm

Well! I'm glad this was received like this—lots of people are bringing out a broad range of thoughts on the track, and I loved reading them all! With that in mind, I thought I'd actually add some thoughts of my own, and hopefully that might clear up what I was going for.

Thoughts on the opening and starting development

I started this track without some big purpose in mind, and this can kind of be seen right up until the beat kicks in. Post-Daisies, I intended on making... I dunno, stuff? Just trying out weird flips and movement with granuals. I'm a huge fan of conun's O2B granuals, and the way Cereal hid flings in Phunner, so I kinda wanted to do some freaky integration shenanigans. That's how the opening kicked off the almost-manuquirk-but-messier style that I tried to escalate as the track progressed.

Thoughts on the song choice

Run The Jewels' sound is loud, brash, gritty, and unapologetic. Once I found out about them, it all kind of clicked into place. The song has these distinct sections where El-P just ramps up the beat, and I thought those would provide some great moments. Once I decided to intensify the messy, scribbly feel, I knew that this would work with the music perfectly.

Thoughts on tricks

Tricks, and what's happening on a technical level to Bosh, hold a certain power. This is not without reason—it's really fun to discover something and then see what you can do with it. I've often found, though, that if you place too much emphasis on technicality, there can sometimes be this loss of enjoyment, because after a certain point, it just feels like tricks are being chained together for the sake of saying "look how good I am at making bosh do really complex things." In this track, I tried to subvert that by actively choosing to obscure the tricks. This made it so that the movement and the visual aesthetics were the most important aspects of the track.

When I hear this:
@Anton wrote:Also, otde, I am not sure how good this track is on a technical level, but it simply DOESN'T MATTER.
I feel like I've succeeded at conveying that.

Thoughts on the chorus (and the "message")

I get the impression, and feel free to correct me if this isn't the case, that people seem to think I don't like quirk, and if you're convinced of that already, Braggadocio probably didn't change your mind. The problem is that it isn't really true, not least because I view quirk as a tool to convey things, in the exact same way that manuals and flatsled and everything kramual related can be tools. If this was a conversation about music, from my perspective, instead of being coherent, like "OTDE hates country music," it sounds like "OTDE hates quarter notes" instead.

What bugs me is when tools (this includes flatsled and manuals and scenery and everything else people can do in line rider) are consistently used to make more of the same. I dunno, I guess you can only see certain patterns of tricks so many times before it all starts to look the same, and the "everybody doin' it" is commentary on that. In the chorus, the sequence of words follows the same pattern every time, and it's like that pressure I felt when I started making tracks. Do this thing. Try adding more of this. Make it look more like this. Everyone had some kind of Platonic ideal they wanted me to follow, and I just kind of fell into doing slow manuals because for me, it was easy, and people liked that stuff the most out of all the things that I made.

So when I hear this:
@Rafael wrote:to the point where it almost felt agressive.
I know people are feeling that pressure that rabid (bless this man for spending so much of his time on this, holy shit) was able to convey.

If there's anything this track is a tirade against, it's monotony. And I totally get the irony inherent in telling people very pointedly not to listen to people telling them what to do, but I still think it's worth saying.

Love y'all <3

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by rabid squirrel on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:10 am

First of all, I want to thank everyone for leaving their thoughts, and I want to say that no comment has gone unnoticed or unread, and all of them have directly affected me, as it is for every comment on every track I am a part of. That being said, I'm not going to respond to comments thoughtfully, partly because I don't want to argue with people because it's draining, partly because of the whole alienation thing, and partly because I don't want scare anyone off from posting comments on tracks in the future by judging their reactions with my replies. So just trust that if you left a comment, I have read it and it is rattling around in my brain.

What I do want to express is a point on which I do disagree with OTDE, and that is that (surprise surprise) I truly do not like quirk. Don't worry, this does not mean that I dislike everyone who makes quirk, and this does not mean that I dislike all quirk tracks. I dislike the way that quirk has taken over our community to the extent that is it nigh impossible to make a track without quirk. Quirk is not and never will be what I find enjoyable about Line Rider or what drew me to Line Rider in the first place, and yet I am forced to either do quirk, or get comments about how I should have done quirk (or other comments to similar effect). Anomaly invented quirk in an attempt to do his own thing, regardless of what other people were doing (mostly involving curves) and it strikes me as the greatest irony that quirk is now seen as a necessary element of a track. When iPi sent me a sample of Mountain I had to persuade him to trash the mediocre 9-second quirk section he had put in "because the track needed it". Nearly all of Line Rider Advanced's features are designed explicitly for easily executing advanced quirk, and this is most apparent when I try to do anything other than quirk in LRA and encounter seemingly endless amounts of glitches that nobody else has ever encountered (because they are all making quirk). Sheldon spent 500 hours on 30 seconds of XY because he thought that it would be worth it in the end. That is what I am talking about and that is why I believe it is not only in my best interest, but in everyone's best interest, to fight the idea that quirk is the foundation of Line Rider. Not because nobody should do quirk, but because nobody should be telling anyone what they can and cannot do in Line Rider, and currently the idea that quirk is necessary is inescapable, as well as false. It is my respectful opinion that OTDE is right in principle, but that in actuality, before we will be free of monotony we must dispel the idea that quirk is superior. For me that means working to be the change I wish to see in the world, and that means making art that I think is worthwhile, and that means making tracks that do not include quirk as default, as a reflex, as a go-to, but rather as little as possible while still conveying the intended message. (And the messages themselves have become inextricably intertwined with my opinions on quirk)

Yes, I know, text wall. I'm scared to post this because I feel like people are going to judge me for being pretentious, or preachy, or being against something that they know and love (quirk). But I feel like it is important for me to get it off my chest, so thanks for reading and I hope you can see where I am coming from and respect my opinion.

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by Z_N-Freak on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:34 am

Just want to say that I agree with rabid on the fact that quirk shouldn't be necessary and that I think he's right that a lot of people feel it is the only way and the "everybody doin it" really applies to us as a community. Of course quirk is not like leading a thug life, but it would be cool if we live in a world where you can just create any type of track without people needlessly saying something like "you should try to put some more quirk".
I guess it's the case that most people just enjoy quirk more, since it seemingly offers more variety, but I feel that's mainly on the technical level. I think we should put the aesthetics of a track over the tricks, which is what this track does very well I think.
Of course you need some quirk in order to attain certain aesthetics, and that's for each individual to decide how they want to create it, but we shouldn't feel limited by the tricks themselves.

[/2 cents]

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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by rich on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:39 pm

Code:
quirk
kwərk
noun
1.
a peculiar behavioral habit.
"his distaste for travel is an endearing quirk"
synonyms: idiosyncrasy, peculiarity, oddity, eccentricity, foible, whim, vagary, caprice, fancy, crotchet, habit, characteristic, trait, fad; informal hang-up

Quirk is just the behavior of of using the lines in peculiar way: as in, to change the gravity behaviors of bosh.
*to change the gravity behaviors of bosh's contact position

Code:
I feel like it's a sandbox game, and whether people are pushing technicality or doing scenery; everyone is just playing it how they want to play it. It's just highlighted often in a technical way, due to the way skill depth games progress. Some people like technical stuff, and some people like stylistic tracks. It's basically an open market of tracks; people like some tracks; and people don't like some tracks. It's not for the community to decide which way the game is focused; the players filling in the sandbox decide. If you can show what people like then that is better for you as a creator, because then your tracks have a high viewer demand. that's all.
*that's all my thoughts.

Code:
I think it's totally natural to have labels on general styles, and to have more technical styles within a genre.

Code:
The way we use lines are abstract constructions in a sandbox game, with that being said people will draw abstractions based on the abstractions another human user has made, and that is just pattern recognition on what you like. The reason I like to make quirk is because anomaly made quirk, and he called it quirk. So I spent so many hours in 6.1 and 6.2 trying to make gwells and flings that my abstract construction process in line rider was primarily based around quirk. It's not a shot in the dark, people who make abstractions in the game are people who are trying to often push the game technically, then people take the technicality and push it stylistically.

Code:
I know OTDE didn't say that, I'm not trying to bring down OTDE love for line rider, but I think the concept that people should move away from quirk or technicality isn't right. I think people should move in what ever direction the feel like moving.
which is not OTDE's point, but rather a concept that arose from the new track.

Code:
But really, all anomaly was trying to do was make glitches, in a game in which he liked making glitches.

My thoughts, from skype. There were some replies, so I hope more context is added after I add mine.


Dap:
Code:
I would take this opportunity to point out that while everybody is entitled to playing how they want to, there are often players who present their own artistic interpretation of the ramifications or outcomes experiences by the release of X track in Y style.
The disconnect is in the fact that some people will say two conflicting things: "Anybody can make what they want and it's playing. It's harmful to make this thing because it limits us." The conflict is seen as a double standard.

The highest level quirkers are no longer concerned with making sure people comprehend the entirety of everything going on in their tracks, they're fine with people getting what they can out of what they make. It is not wrong to make something so abstract or technical that the original intention is obscured, so long as the artist is okay with the interpretation of the audience.
Obviously, not all quirk is the same. If you don't like quirk, there's no need to say anything about it at all. Most quirkers have very little to say about scenery or other kinds of tracks, because we know we can'ts ee what's going on the way we'd need to to get the full effect. But players who don't have any idea what's going on and are unwilling to take the time to figure it out are still very privy to expressing their (often negative) thoughts on quirk tracks, and inserting their own opinions and comprehension as a substitute for the author's. THAT is where the quirkers get their jimmies ruffled.
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Re: BRAGGADOCIO

Post by FlagCapper on Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:48 am

The development of the track up to the finale is very nicely done and syncs well with both the song and the scenery. The way the "Quirk", "Stack", "Fling", etc. text flashes also looks really cool.

As for the meta discussion:

Quirk, like any technique in line rider, is a tool. It happens to be a very useful tool that lets you do a lot of things in your track that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. There have always been tracks which don't use this tool (Mountain, for example), but they typically compensate by being very, very well executed. If a track does neither novel, interesting movement nor is very well executed there's just not much left.

You can of course argue that line rider tracks should be about the message or the theme or about some kind of unifying idea, but ultimately there's only so many things like this you can express in line rider. What's more, a well-executed thematic track will always be better than a poorly-executed one, as will one that uses all the tools that are available (when appropriate) versus one that doesn't.

You'll notice, by the way, that people who are doing quirk are also trying to innovate thematically (and have been for some time). If you look at Anton's recent tracks, for example, all have interesting ideas and motives. In the two tracks I've made since I came back, both of which used quirk, I also tried to do things in a fairly original and unique way (it's not for me to decide whether I was successful, of course). All the modern, highly-technical quirk I've seen also has a distinct style and flow to it that is fairly different from quirk even a few years ago. There's no deep messages hidden in any of them of course, but I think it's about what you can expect from a visual medium like line rider.

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