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Suggestion: Invisible Lines

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shiny
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Conundrumer
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Lukking
JealousCloud
Rafael
rabid squirrel
Fauxfyre
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Suggestion: Invisible Lines Empty Suggestion: Invisible Lines

Post by Fauxfyre Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:09 pm

I don't have much else to add than what's in the chat, other than I think it's a decent idea and would only affect the game positively as a form of art.
Suggestion: Invisible Lines Invisi10

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Post by rabid squirrel Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:12 pm

The potential for aesthetic is interesting. It would be a big thing to adjust to though.

Basically you could make Bosh move any way you wanted through any visual space you created with lines.
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Post by Rafael Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:27 pm

I don't like the idea, it changes the validity of the game. You could also use opacity to get shades of gray in scenery (which would change scenery drastically), and honestly removing stabilizers this way is pretty stupid. It removes the impressiveness factor of recyling, since you can clog the track with stabilizers if you want to .-. If you really don't want them, don't use them.
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Post by JealousCloud Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:31 pm

This is why I don't support SLAGwells. If I ever were to support them it'd be through invisible lines. I've considered it a couple of times but I'm afraid of a couple things that might ruin the track economy.
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Post by Lukking Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:33 pm

i dont like the idea
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Post by Opal Rider Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:40 pm

In scenery, I'm not sure it'd make much sense. Maybe a few circumstances would make it cool, but oftentimes, especially with the people interested in scenery today, everyone's interested in creating an immersive world where everything makes sense. Floating on air doesn't quite hit that mark.

As for in naked tracks, I could only see it being used as a gimmick, or for hiding stabilizers, in which I side with Rafael's post.
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Post by mmtunligit Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:49 pm

LV, where are the sprites located?
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Post by JealousCloud Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:32 pm

mmtunligit12 wrote:LV, where are the sprites located?
What sprites?
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Post by Conundrumer Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:01 pm

The lines don't have sprites.

Also, we already have g-wells. The original appeal of Line Rider was its physicality: This guy is riding these lines. Lines that feel solid because of the way bosh collides against them. I think g-wells are already a huge stretch into intangibility, invisible lines would make things even more intangible and would make Line Rider a wiggle-in-a-void simulator.

If you want to experiment with Line Rider beyond the track, start with the camera.
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Post by Sheldon Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:20 pm

Slag wells I still want them.
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Post by OTDE Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:03 pm

I'm not really a fan. However, slagwells are actually a pretty huge part of LR history, IMO, and I'd like to be able to work with them in a platform like LRA if possible.
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Post by Sheldon Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:12 pm

^ my points exactly :|
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Post by JealousCloud Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:21 pm

OTDE wrote:I'm not really a fan. However, slagwells are actually a pretty huge part of LR history, IMO, and I'd like to be able to work with them in a platform like LRA if possible.
Theyre a big part of the history but it's not a bug to intentionally support. It is incredibly bad to watch from a prediction standpoint because it can't even be _explained_ to a random viewer. You cant even say "oh it's invisible lines, theyre trying to mislead you"
nope.
It's just a random bug that has some confusing implications.


though im aware similar can be said for gwells
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Post by Fauxfyre Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:29 pm

Rafael wrote:I don't like the idea, it changes the validity of the game.
So is Line Rider a game or an art? If LR is art, why not have lines you can't see that Bosh can interact with?

I know people here are scared of change but seriously everyone deals with it anyways and ends up loving it eventually. I don't see how this is more controversial than hit test, contact points, and live-editing.

Maybe people just need to think a bit more about it? I mean, I won't use it really so I don't care, but I'm trying to help here by adding something that would add a lot of depth to trackmaking without honestly taking anything away.

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Post by JealousCloud Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Fauxfyre wrote:
Rafael wrote:I don't like the idea, it changes the validity of the game.
So is Line Rider a game or an art? If LR is art, why not have lines you can't see that Bosh can interact with?

I know people here are scared of change but seriously everyone deals with it anyways and ends up loving it eventually. I don't see how this is more controversial than hit test, contact points, and live-editing.

Maybe people just need to think a bit more about it? I mean, I won't use it really so I don't care, but I'm trying to help here by adding something that would add a lot of depth to trackmaking without honestly taking anything away.
LINE RIDER IS ART

That's the whole point of LRA! I personally may add invisible lines but there are many more things that I'd rather add at the point and like I said, scared of breaking the track economy. But absolutely, I disagree with anyone who says it breaks the validity.
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Post by theacp127 Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:51 pm

I feel that invisible lines would be something that would create confusion. It would make track watching misleading since you couldn't tell what is actually going on. Part of the art form is making these complex movements out of a limited tool of lines. If you make lines that can't be seen the fullness that makes a track wouldn't be there. The game is a visible experience and making invisible lines, I think, would reduce this effect.
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Post by shiny Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:51 pm

In cases where bosh is going decently fast, it's the lines that give him context. You can tell how fast he's going based on how he's moving relative to the lines around him. It anchors him in a way and allows the track to have a sense of scale. As for hiding stabilizers, that would just encourage messy flings, and this would also be taking a small community and making it more inaccessible to those who used to play linerider. I think its an interesting idea that could be used in a handful of tracks in a neat way, but as for an overall shift I have to vote no.
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Post by Conundrumer Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:21 pm

Fauxfyre wrote:I don't see how this is more controversial than hit test, contact points, and live-editing

Those tools assist with making the track. They don't add new elements to the universe of Line Rider. The tracks can still be played in Flash versions.

Invisible lines would be a new element. Something to think about as one of +3 line types to use. It directly changes the way the track is seen.

Fauxfyre wrote:[...]I'm trying to help here by adding something that would add a lot of depth to trackmaking without honestly taking anything away.

Currently, in order to influence Bosh, you need to use solid physical lines. This is a constraint: Use physical things to affect physical things. Physical effects have physical causes. Invisible lines would remove that constraint, and break down causality. It's frustrating when there is no apparent cause to things that are happening. Hiding lines in scenery still requires using scenery lines (existing elements!), at least giving an indication that there are solid lines behind that black scenery, not hiding in the white void.

Line Rider is not a game, but a highly constrained animation tool. These constraints are valuable, because that's what distinguishes Line Rider from other animated 2d digital graphics.

This isn't an argument that we should oppose any and all change. We need to really understand how we perceive and interpret tracks, what value we find in them, in order to see what constraints are appropriate to loosen.

That being said, I'm considering lines toggled by trigger lines.
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Post by ScrungleBlumpkus Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:55 pm

shotoku you've done it again
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Post by rabid squirrel Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:04 am

I think I agree with conundrumer.
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Post by Conundrumer Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:23 am

Dapianokid wrote:shotoku you've done it again

What are you talking about? If you're making a criticism, we're having a constructive discussion.
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Post by Fauxfyre Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:57 am

Thank you everyone for actually providing constructive arguments against the idea. Last cool thing that could come from it that I want to share though (2nd image is lamely extended in paint to make the point more clear):
Suggestion: Invisible Lines E63f643a58
Suggestion: Invisible Lines Cubebr10
You can have 3D scenery where Bosh isn't always riding on the edge of lines, and can actually ride on top of things.

I don't have anything further to add. I respect your feedback.

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Post by ScrungleBlumpkus Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:30 am

you sexy animal, keeping us thinking and growing.
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Post by JealousCloud Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:35 am

Maybe you could have an invisible line _within_ a radius of a visible line. I don't know. Hmm. A good point though.
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Post by Conundrumer Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:20 am

The best option we have for that use case is to cleverly hide lines as shading. Otherwise, where does the "3d" surface begin and end? What if the white void is a giant tilted plane? If you draw a trapezoid, is it a trapezoid or a tilted square? I appreciate efforts in 3d scenery but it's really hard when you only have 2 dimensions with no parallax.
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