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Ask the Line Rider history buff (me)

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anton
mhenr18
Sheldon
efrazable
Rafael
Cephyric
ScrungleBlumpkus
Conundrumer
Apple
rabid squirrel
roflmaoqwerty
Lukking
Z_N-Freak
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Post by rabid squirrel Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:11 pm

Rafael wrote:I feel like Blue Champion was the first track to sync to an entire song, but Jam was the first track to sync very precizely throughout and focus on specific moments instead of sections. Music syncing went next-level in terms of precision, and tracks like EXPLOSIVO arised.
I also feel like it raised the bar on the length of ambitious projects. The concentration of long tracks since the release of Jam is noticably higher and some huge tracks have been released after (Angel, Phunner, WTM). Opinions?
Blue Champion directly inspired Jam. You can argue that Jam was more precise, sure, and almost certainly a better track, yes, and even that it is more often listed as inspiration, yes but I don't see Jam as the origin point for the advancement of precise music syncing. I think if you want to credit it with anything, it would be the origin of the trend of projects over 3 minutes in length (before Jam over 3 minutes was typically considered too long either because it was boring or because it was too big of an endeavor). But I think the existence of NODA speaks to the fact that Jam was more likely the frontrunner of that trend than the origin point. Anyway, I don't really count that as an "advancement" in trackmaking. You could say that it succeeded where Blue Champion failed and fulfilled the vision of a full length synced track, if you will, but I would still cite BC as the origin. Blue Champion has a number of moments that are clearly precisely planned syncs. The turning point was when IGGB started looking at the timer and lining the track up to the music, instead of finding a song that synced well halfway through or when it was almost done. He started with a song, and made a track to match it.

Sheldon wrote:As far as xy list I feel like you skipped mj entirely. You think he has a place?
You'll notice I skipped not only MJ, but redcap, boo, splash, h4m, and WTB as well, to name a few. This isn't because they weren't good at xy or didn't make great tracks, it was because the question was specifically about the advancements made in XY, not the best or most inspirational tracks or players.
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Post by rabid squirrel Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:04 pm

efrazable wrote:Oldest Color Replay?
I've been trying to find the track with the oldest color replay. Here's one from June 2008, try to beat me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz-CAwMgc-Y
Stolen from the linerider subreddit

Color replay first started being possible when Flagpole discovered the play in edit mode glitch.
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t1684-full-list-of-easter-eggs-and-glitches-in-line-rider
Basically, in 6.2, you load a track and then immediately press Y. This plays the track while it's loading, so it loads the lines in color (except for the first 2-10 lines or so). Then if you press Y again, it will play from the beginning of the track but the loaded lines will remain in color.

This became a popular way to do blue-proof, and then color replay started being popular in general, and then mhenr made it a feature in 6.7 when you hold C and the rest is history.

As far as the oldest track with color replay, unfortunately the thread by flagpole was on .org and IRTL and was not archived so I don't know the date it was discovered.

HOWEVER, I can totally beat yours :P
ZNF was pretty early into color playback (and I think a big guy to popularize color playback as a backdrop for credits)
LOVE, originally released August 18, 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_My5od2PhY
going back through his archives, PWNT was released in July 5, 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7p5W-GWEoQ

However, if you're looking for an actual video with an old upload date that is still on youtube, the best I find is Ubermicro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL3ZYyb5qKY
(Nov 3, 2007)
but I bet you could find earlier ones
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Post by Lukking Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:43 pm

What was the most time-consuming track of all time?
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Post by rabid squirrel Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:40 pm

Lukking wrote:What was the most time-consuming track of all time?
I don't know, but I can guess, at least in terms of scenery. I have estimated Bolted to the Wall took me about 200 hours. Based on that I would estimate Transcendental took TechDawg a similar amount of time assuming he worked a bit faster than me. Manual Mayhem Supernatural allegedly had about 5 times as many lines, but he lists his hours count at 385 in the credits, probably because of liberal use of pencil tool. Gjert has a video of him scening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcgBTS7sZvo - but it's sped up so it's hard to tell the pace. Assuming a somewhat normal to fast pace, he says in the comments he's at halfway-in-theory at about 100k, so I'd estimate the finished product at 300k, so I would estimate the time spent at maybe 400 hours. Incito Scaena is listed as 343k but overlaps are counted in that so the count is more likely about 250k. Also, GhostY notoriously worked extremely fast and made it in a matter of days (wtf?), so I'd estimate it at 150 hours maybe? And then of course there's CC who never had huge linecounts but was a notoriously slow scener, which could bump Mysteria 3 up past the 300 hour range potentially.

Ultimately in scenery, I'd say probably Breathtaking Silence at probably 400+ hours. Mostly a guess.

In quirk, it's a whole different story. I asked the LCC once how fast they worked and it was crazy varied. Georg apparently made whole tracks in like 3 days while aspi and hedge would spend multiple days on a single line sometimes. (but I know for a fact that the majority of Vision was made in a matter of weeks, not months) Nobody really kept track of hours worked or trackmaking speed over the long term, and the most insane trackmakers were usually speed trackmakers. My best bet for a track taking a long time would be Jam by Rafael, because he is usually a slow(ish) trackmaker by comparison and there's about 4 minutes or so of serious quirk in there. I'd probably estimate it at 500 as well, if he averaged one second every 2 hours or so. But that's a HUGE guess. If anyone has data to give me about this kind of thing you are more than welcome.

For my own tracks, I think Archaeology was about 80 hours, warp was about 30, and driftwood was about 115. That's after I started keeping better track of the hours I spent.
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Post by Rafael Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:10 pm

^ Jam took about 500 hours indeed :P
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Post by Sheldon Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:27 am

Has anyone besides me had LCC more than once?
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Post by mhenr18 Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:48 am

I think I did, but I'm not 100% sure. My rank history is somewhat ridiculous ahaha

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Post by rabid squirrel Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:24 am

Sheldon wrote:Has anyone besides me had LCC more than once?
Short answer:
.boo was LCC from 8/31/09 to 11/6/10, and also from 8/16/2010 to 7/17/2014 (when the LCC was dissolved. So, no.

Longer and less direct answer:
Ever wonder why the LCC is called "Linerider Community Collaboration"? Not "Elite Trackmakers" not "Masters of LR" not "Club of Epic People"?

The LCC was originally formed by Chih. I've always spoken pretty highly of Chih in the past, and I do think he was one of the best staff we ever had... but this is probably the biggest blunder of his I know of. It's been long enough that I think I can probably talk about it now. Chih, if you're reading this, sorry!

The LCC was basically originally formed early in IRTL's history to recreate his edited track, Line Raider, but better. Better scenery, a better ending, a conclusion involving bosh flying over a stadium of cheering fans... Well, as you know, that never happened. What happened was everyone wanted to get the fancy new LCC PIP bar, and Chih was perhaps too liberal with letting people join. What basically happened was 10,000 people signed up and said they would help... and then the collaboration stuff never even got close to done. I wasn't in the LCC at the start so I don't know the details, but let's just say it was an abysmal failure. The LCC section then sat desolate for a while, with lots of people having the PIP but no one actually working on anything.

My memory is surprisingly fuzzy on how we got from a massive amount of people doing nothing to the somewhat smallish group that made 4 Boxez. I know we demoted a ton of people, and I know we started actually trying to make community collabs, and I know that I didn't have a clue what I was doing trying to organize and direct projects (which is why it took us so goddamn long to release anything in the early years - we had tons of projects that were eventually scrapped), but eventually it became a small group of people who were supposedly working on stuff but were actually mostly dead most of the time. And we sorta stayed that way... but we were actually pretty active 2009-2012 Smile (which I'd like to think is because I had figured out the best methods for kicking people in the pants to get them to do stuff, but who knows)

Anyway, suffice it to say lots of people were (probably) demoted and then promoted later when they got better, early in the LCC history
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Post by efrazable Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:37 pm

^huh, never knew that. kind of funny
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Post by rabid squirrel Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:06 am

Bump
rabid squirrel wrote:
Dapianokid wrote:Can you detail the list of major advancements in XY tracks, up till now?
Chillinby Ram Tzu - first (sorta) XY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7eaYPiiabg
Elevator Fun by Ram Tzu - elevators and pinches!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-cplVIlq8I
XY by anomaly76 - coined the term. first true XY. also first gravity wells in XY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ASb6sxp7w
Bluyx by ZNF - XY scenery track. not the first but really made XY scenery a thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AJleEWr-RU
Mixed XY by ClosedDoor - all blue, upwards, fast paced and entertaining. also shoulder granual
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOwfB1AElI
Vibrato by STP - granuals are fun! Yes this was made with hax but it is the origin point for granuals in XY tracks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXiNE8wh2hY
Fluid Karma by Ram Tzu - xy grolling!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7W3xkaIYG8
Flynx by ZNF - xy flings
video is lost Sad Also not sure I'm remembering the title correctly... Also have no idea when this came out. maybe znf remembers?

Omniverse 2 Beta by Conundrumer - all Y section
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJWimVfHKEE
Electric Feel by Bubbles - next level XY scenery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKlmLQ7LwU
Inverted Physics by FlagCapper - upwards, blue, Y (YGGB was the first, but this was shortly after and much better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=910wKS1B074
Roborant by Votale (& GhostY) - integration is fun! (and intense!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZRckwZQUw4
Strobe by Groove Clan - georg did the first 45 degree section in a track that I am aware of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ojH5rIweUs
Crusade by Sheldon - kramual stuff in XY (some experiments before this was released but this was the first in a track)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP15BHmfUmk
Dank Nasty by Summoning & Votale - fake lines added for aesthetic purposes (aka GREEN EVERYWHERE) touched on by georg before but really taken to the next level here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxzWbLhhY8
Limitations by the LCC - Sheldon was the first to do superstacks in XY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gOnk4x3AjcQ
Inhibitions by dapianokid - next level kramual shit (cannons, flings, etc). gao and kram touched on this stuff but never in an XY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCwr-ZbhlY8
Flynx has been rediscovered!
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11733-flynx-znf-re-release
Both the .sol and upload date. And the upload date is shockingly early. Before Fluid Karma & Vibrato (May 08), and before Mixed XY (Feb 08), Flynx by ZNF was released in August of 2007 Shocked This is ridiculous because I don't think people started actually doing more advanced xy flings than ZNF was doing in Flynx (HIS SECOND XY) until like, December 2008 at the earliest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRfbO9FpvwQ
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Post by ScrungleBlumpkus Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:46 am

omfg yes this is the best thing YES

The mere fact that this shit exists THAT early. Holy crap wtf was your problem ZNF xD

I'm far more exited to make stuff now
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Post by Z_N-Freak Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:56 am

I was trying to do things people thought impossible, sue me Suspicious
Nah, but I just thought it should be possible to do flings in XY, so I tried and made a track. I don't remember people being particularly excited about it though, XY was often seen I think as kind of boring/bland because it offered less options.
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Post by anton Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:57 am

what was the first post-modern track?
which was the first modern track?
which was the first of any era alike?

Also, which was the first good track?
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Post by Helios Pavonine Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:59 am

What were the biggest controversies as far as tracks go? (eg. Daisies)
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Post by Noname219 Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:40 am

What's the history behind Line Rider Beta 3 ? Was it ever popular ?

Also, where do you consider Free Rider in the Line Rider evolution and history ?
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Post by rabid squirrel Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:33 am

Anton's questions are pretty subjective so just consider these my opinions instead of fact Smile
Anton wrote:what was the first post-modern track?
Spoiler:
Phunner by Cereal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak2_7jHtRpA

Anton wrote:which was the first modern track?
Spoiler:
I could see an argument for:
Switch by Shadoninja
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwCBL0vrpxI
The Painting by Nirobi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZjs3ppreQw

But in my book the track that really started the "movement" if you will was
Old People by ACwazHere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f6LNuo9vmk

Anton wrote:which was the first of any era alike?
What?

Anton wrote:which was the first good track?
Jagged Peak Adventure by UnConed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcu8ZdJ2dQo

------------------------------------------

Helios Pavonine wrote:What were the biggest controversies as far as tracks go? (eg. Daisies)
WELL
This started as a fun little research project that  turned into an enormous post that took about approximately 4 hours of time and brought up a lot of my worst memories about this community. I've decided to post the whole thing anyway. Proceed at your own risk.

Probably the oldest I know of was Monumental by TechDawg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiUWCfzuvLg
Widespread praise on YouTube but many within the community were critical of the sloppy manuals and large empty areas.

Another oldie was Utopia by x612nt13.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3yPAVnDWgI
Some people liked it but many didn't think it lived up to the hype.

Evolution by BHCS was a big one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I8lNVnJWSs
because the scenery was so great but the track was very much an afterthought

A lot of the older tracks I'm probably forgetting about because the forum discussion topics are gone. But there was a LOT more controversy over how to the site was run back in the day (think rant threads with 20 pages of arguing) than over the kinds of tracks people were making.

Party's Over by pure5152 was controversial after I gave it a holy shoe
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t4201-party-s-over-pure5152

HUGE controversy over myself giving Centrifugal Force by Sheldon a holy shoe
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t4648-centrifugal-force-sheldon
Votale wrote:It wasn't me that started some argument about it, I just posted my opinion, but I did somewhat expect someone to rant on me for it. Well screw it I'm not here to be perfect and conform to everyone else's opinions. I came here for the freedom to say what I want and voice my opinion, but apparently within the last year people get all offended and hurt and start crying when someone like me or Raf disagrees with them, and we become some sort of idiots for disagreeing. But okay, dislike me for my opinion and actually posting it. That's your call.
This was definitely one of the biggest ones.

Centrifugal XY by Sheldon had a ton of criticism as well
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t6080p25-centrifugal-xy-cf2-sheldon
and it also boiled over into the Cheetah by Rafael and SCG thread
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t6153-cheetah-scg-rafael

I think the #1 controversial track in my book was Eden 2 by Helios Pavonine though.
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t8566-eden-2
Jam wrote:
Helios Pavonine wrote:Thanks for no constructive criticism at all. The 'keep it up' doesn't suffice for me and doesn't compensate the enormous amount of what seems like hatred towards me. I want to see you do better.
...the track was not emotional, and it really wasn't -- impactful does not equal emotional.
...And if it doesn't suffice for you, you can go ahead and [fuck yourself], you entitled, arrogant, [asshole]. No, I won't do better in technical quirk because it is a genre I despise. TYVM
^ this is the last post that was made in the thread before he deleted his videos
Conundrumer wrote:Suppose that you are deeply troubled and pour it into something like a song you wrote, and share it with other people. The song is technically good, but then you find out that no one was really moved as much as you. It's the feeling you get when nobody understands you. It's a pretty awful feeling. It makes you want to quit. That's what HP did. He took the risk of putting his own emotions into a Line Rider track. And people didn't get it. So now he's gone.
^ to date probably the best analysis of what happened.
And then of course gao's re-edit which followed:
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t8645-bump (took me friggin forever to find the thread)
Eden 2 revealed the best and the worst of the Line Rider community. It revealed the unnecessarily high value placed on other members' opinions, and it revealed the animosity that can arise between members and the ensuing fallout. But it also revealed the forgiveness that our members are capable of, and the ability to rebuild friendships.
...We need to stop pressuring each other to beat our last tracks, and exceed each others' expectations. Play Line Rider for yourself, do whatever you want and channel whatever emotions you want in the way you think is best, and share it to the community to see if anyone else can see your track in the same way as you do. Don't make tracks looking at it from others' perspectives, because then that track won't have been made by you, it will have been made by someone else.
I'll leave the post on tumblr I made on that subject here:
Spoiler:

One of the ones I remember most vividly was Limitations by the LCC
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t8699-limitations-the-lcc
because the vast majority of the animosity was directly squarely at myself.
Rafael wrote:my question is: What naked track have you made of any importance?
Rafael wrote:You get people to work on the art they create, but I haven't seen you create any tracks that express your vision.
LineMagiX wrote:
rabid squirrel wrote:
Rafael wrote:you bring it all like you know your shit better than everybody else
Whoa there, slow down, take a deep breath.
Maybe you actually need to hear this, Rabid? Have you ever thought that maybe your high and mighty opinionated reviews actually annoy people more than they help them?  Have you ever wondered why so many people argue with you or get frustrated with how you respond to them?
And the only thing I've gotten from your reviews are that I lack this imaginary trackmaking thing called "vision", because apparently no matter how I do it, it's just planned out well enough. Now how the hell I supposed to improve on that if what I do is exactly what I'm going for, but not gone about how YOU would have done.
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but please don't review my tracks anymore. It doesn't help me, and it would save you a lot of time. Smile

Valence 2 by Sheldon was a mess
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t8921-valence-2
but mostly just because kevans posted a pretty mean spirited "review"
[senpai] kevans wrote:Immediately I could tell you were full of yourself, like this was supposed to be way more impressive than what it hyped to be. In the end it looked like a pretty average track to me.
...I'd give a score, but that would imply I have a solid opinion on the matter, which i don't because of how inept the track was with itself.

Okay this might have been actually the worst one. This one was so bad we actually had to change rules, the chat was shut down for most of a day, and two prominent members were banned for multiple weeks.
High Notions 2 by Kramwood.
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t10936-feature-high-notions-2-by-kramwood
Sheldon wrote:
[senpai] kevans wrote:
Sheldon wrote:if you voted no, you probably make scenery :|
I don't make scenery, though you don't think my opinion is valid anyways.
Your knowledge of quirking is simply too rudimentary to understand the enormity of this undertaking. So no kevans your opinion simply is not valid in this situation... it's 20x better than anything you've ever made technically
Sheldon wrote:
[senpai] kevans wrote:
Sheldon wrote:I may not be the authority, but I am far more of an authority than you on the subject of quirk and thats just a fact.
O, my apologies ociffer, I won driv krunk agan
dont act like its not true you have never made an even half decent quirk. Enjoyable? maybe just maybe, technical precise or clean? NEVER
rabid squirrel wrote:
Rafael wrote:Wait what. One heated discussion and we're discussing to stop featuring? xD
I guess you missed it. Let's just say the chat was shut down (like, actually disabled on livestream.com and the forum) for an hour yesterday, the squirrel broadcast was delayed an hour, sheldon and dap both have streaming permissions revoked and they are both banned for 1-2 weeks. Since this isn't a democracy, I am not obliged to explain my actions to anyone but my fellow staff, but I may fill you in if you ask me privately and I won't punish you for asking as long as it's in the form of contacting me privately.
Kramwood wrote:let me talk about how Bipolar this community is towards music (syncing):
...So at the end of this because Conundrummer has NOTICEABLY edited a song to a track he gets a feature? I say noticeably because Georgio (With backflip and Dacite, not sure if there are any more), myself (with Thanatos, Multiverse, High Notions 2 and a few others) and probably more people have actually been editing songs to fit tracks for years. Plus, the only thing Conundrummer really did was throw a few beats together and adjust the tempo of a voice/song/noises, but it apparently has everything to do with how his Line Rider track was constructed for a Line Rider community in which (apparently) most of the people don’t understand how DAW’s work and what is constituted as exceptional work when using one.
Kramwood wrote:
Dapianokid wrote:I think you should've expected this considering how much more we all know you're capable of Smile
No. I will never bow down to others greed. Just because I can make people feel happy and content with my work doesn’t mean that I should, especially if they just expect me to give them my happiness with not much in return.
Kramwood wrote:ummm, so does this mean that you get a one day ban also, or is rabid just Supreme Overlord? You released a troll track in the last few days which can be considered disrespectful, just like sheldon either mistakenly or jokingly said something that could be disrespectful...
I do not regret making this post. Do as you will with this. If your response is to just become angry at my response then all my respect towards you will be lost. I don’t care that you have control over the forum. If you’re going to lead it you better lead it by example and watch yourself.
I can't believe this actually happened
Kramwood wrote:I still literally laugh out loud when I see the word “accessible” used in this form. You do realize that you are literally saying that something is so high above everyone else that it can’t be understood, right? Why are we just throwing a label over this and writing it off? This is like looking at the universe and saying what ever. There isn’t anything special about it only because I can’t get out side of the atmosphere to see it atm. How would you feel if I said that transcendental or Manual Mayhem X was inaccessible? Most of the community hasn’t been able to dedicate themselves enough to make something like this, but yet it gets its praise. Why be negative towards the other half of the community?
I still don't understand how Kramwood could think that I was being infinitely elitist by judging the track for personal entertainment value... or writing Wot off as "[all Conun] really did was throw a few beats together and adjust the tempo of a voice/song/noises"... or that he could publicly dispute a ban and then dare me to respond to his attack... or that he could sincerely believe that creating tracks and posting them was a zero-sum happiness game that he was losing somehow... or that he genuinely believed that "inaccessible" meant difficult to create... or that he would warn us of a "demise"... And this was all in one post! Just ludicrous.

Live and Let Die by Chuggers
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11012-live-and-let-die-my-masterpiece
is another one I remember vividly because my moving it to the tidbits & oddballs section (because it seemed to be an overly pretentious compilation of pieces of unfinished and past tracks) sparked the most abuse I have ever received on this site from other members. Which led to this thread:
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11013-reminder-this-is-not-a-democracy
where I explained that I was not obligated to listen to anyone who expressed their opinion in an attacking, mean way, which resulted in these gems:
Chuggers wrote:I guess rabid is always right
Dapianokid wrote:good to be reminded how puny we are compared to big brother, every once in a while!
shammies wrote:I gotta watch my thoughts now, don't want thought police coming after me.
Pawel3 wrote:Boop boop that's the sound of da thought police
Lankher wrote:
rabid squirrel wrote:bwah bwah bwah I can do whatever I want and you can't tell me I'm wrong or I'll ban you for 2 days maybe
and you wonder why people don't like you
LineMagiX wrote:all hail king rabid
Inukaza wrote:you have lost all social power as admin. You have physical power over site functions, however, nobody takes you seriously. You're like the boss who only wants to be friends.
Lukking wrote:Im not allowed to disagree with your actions? i guess ima leave then.
Chuggers wrote:If we stop now, this problem will return greater in the future.  this has become a serious matter and it should be solved now.
I'll be honest, I'm still fucking pissed about this, to this day. I haven't forgotten who shat on me in that thread and I'll never be able to really be friends with any of them because they kicked me down in the dirt just because everyone else was doing it too.
For the record, 1) nobody ever contacted me via PM to express an opinion about the situation, and 2) I moved it to the Tracks section about a week after people stopped flaming me.

Assault by Lukking ft Sheldon was a big one
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11322-assault-ft-sheldon
Lukking wrote:Thank you, Sam Storm for your honest and well thought out review of this track. I also cant wait for your future tracks! How about plasmic route 23948...
Have a nice day
Sheldon wrote:I feel like people are question what is the point of this track, like tracks are supposed to have a deep philosophical meaning. But they really are just meant to be eye candy
Chuggers wrote:the track is just a bunch of stuff slapped together, theres no coherence to it
...you cant sprinkle gold onto poopoo some other substance and make it appealing

Compared to those Daisies was barely a controversy at all. Fuck, now I'm depressed and mad as hell. Ima go sleep and answer noname's questions tomorrow.
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Post by OTDE Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:48 am

This contains some important lessons for myself. I often get caught up in the idea that other people should make a track in a certain way, and looking at Eden 2 makes me realize that it's probably more important to step back and make whatever I want to make, and just let everyone else do the same.
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Post by Helios Pavonine Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:59 am

rabid squirrel wrote:
Live and Let Die by Chuggers
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11012-live-and-let-die-my-masterpiece
is another one I remember vividly because my moving it to the tidbits & oddballs section (because it seemed to be an overly pretentious compilation of pieces of unfinished and past tracks) sparked the most abuse I have ever received on this site from other members. Which led to this thread:
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t11013-reminder-this-is-not-a-democracy
where I explained that I was not obligated to listen to anyone who expressed their opinion in an attacking, mean way, which resulted in these gems: [...]
I'll be honest, I'm still fucking pissed about this, to this day. I haven't forgotten who shat on me in that thread and I'll never be able to really be friends with any of them because they kicked me down in the dirt just because everyone else was doing it too.
I guess now's a good time to say I think you've been a great admin and without your effort this site would've been dead probably. Crazy that that whole thing happened just one year ago.

Reason why I asked this is because I didn't remember any old, controversial tracks. It's almost like the subject has shifted from content - how good is the track technically - to presentation and meaning. The question is whether this will lead to more controversy and discussion in the future. Anyway, thank you for your extensive research on this matter, appreciate it. The psychology and history behind LR is really starting to interest me.

EDIT: Also holy crap I understand the message at the beginning of Live and Let Die just now. I'm a dumb dumb.
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Post by Noname219 Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:51 am

Noname219 wrote:What's the history behind Line Rider Beta 3 ? Was it ever popular ?

Also, where do you consider Free Rider in the Line Rider evolution and history ?

To continue on this :
Do you think Line Rider Beta 2 is considered an entire game on its own or a real Beta release ?
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Post by Conundrumer Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:45 pm

OTDE wrote:This contains some important lessons for myself. I often get caught up in the idea that other people should make a track in a  certain way, and looking at Eden 2 makes me realize that it's probably more important to step back and make whatever I want to make, and just let everyone else do the same.

It's interesting that some tracks were (interpreted to have been) made to criticize a certain way of making tracks.

For me, the way I try to influence others to make tracks a certain way, either I make those kinds of tracks I want to see in an attempt to inspire others, or I provide encouraging/helpful comments on tracks leaning in the direction I want, while ignoring the tracks that don't interest me. I go out of my way to attempt to influence others because I'd rather not put time into making Line Rider tracks myself.
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Post by rabid squirrel Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:34 pm

These are all veering into personal opinion and theoretical speculation, so you have been warned!
Noname219 wrote:What's the history behind Line Rider Beta 3 ? Was it ever popular ?
Beta 3 was launched in 2009 on linerider.com. By 2012 linerider.com was very glitchy, and I think the site went down completely around 2014. For a long time it was impossible to download. In 2012 kevans posted an improved Beta 3 but it never caught on:
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t7890-beta-3-7-4-finished

There were a few small B3 releases in our community, the biggest one probably being this one by cereal:
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t5794-cereal-chipper
made for a contest but I can't find the contest thread.
efrazable also tried to start a brown & pink lines contest. It didn't go well though.
https://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t4421-idea-all-purple-lines-contest
There were certainly releases outside our community, and one with dual riders that ended up on this site was really cool. Something about Bosh infiltrating the evil lab of the green guy. I don't know where it is or how to find it though.

I think the unpopularity of Beta 3 was due to the fact that it added lots of features that sound good on paper but were extremely stupid in practice.
- Pink Lines are cool sometimes, but they create large amounts of lag and there is an arbitrary fixed amount of time before they disappear. They're a party trick with not much potential for real creativity.
- Brown Lines are literally accel lines with the fun taken away.
- Multiple riders sounds cool on paper, but a limited number and fixed skins for the riders severely limits possibilities, and the lack of a fixed camera makes it really difficult to easily make something watchable. (Though totally possible, and I think it would be quite fun to see more of if people were interested in making them)
- Camera controls are good in theory but they were collision based instead of timeline based and the controls available in camera events were limited and complicated.

So while plenty of people probably played Beta 3, in general it was never "popular" at least among power users.

Noname219 wrote:Also, where do you consider Free Rider in the Line Rider evolution and history ?
Free Rider / Canvas Rider was a really fascinating spin-off. The idea being, what if you could control the rider? It has yet to really solidify a community and it has yet to figure out how to handle the dynamic between who makes the levels, who plays the levels, and how to showcase the best of either. There are people who make beautiful pen-drawing-style line art and then the course is an an "auto" (hold a key the entire time and the guy will automatically run the course, aka line rider), there are people who make levels that are actually difficult to beat, there are people who are really good at beating them... But in general it's not very accessible because it is not clear what the purpose of the game is, because there are so many different ways to engage with it. It has done one thing right though - continuing to improve the game and getting it on mobile devices - where people can play the levels (which wouldn't work for LR). On a mobile device it has been successful because there is only one thing to really do: play levels. And there is an endless supply, though they vary in quality drastically (but just go to the next one) But in my opinion Line Rider is much better as an artmaking tool because there is a clear final product: a track that you watch in the form of a video. That has never been true for Free Rider / Canvas Rider. It's a game, and the levels are crowdsourced by people who want to make levels, but the levels can never really escape their label as a level in a game. When you typically play a game with levels, there needs to be a learning curve that gradually increases the difficulty and challenges you face, which means that different levels are right for different skill levels... which means it's impossible to rate the level design of an individual free rider level. The site and community has never been able to address this. And if you are making an "auto", or a ton of line art in a very easy level, you're better off just playing Line Rider because then you have a final product in the form of a video, instead of a level in the game. Ultimately, I remain unconvinced that Free Rider / Canvas Rider is anything more than a boredom killer game with crowdsourced levels.

Noname219 wrote:Do you think Line Rider Beta 2 is considered an entire game on its own or a real Beta release ?
I think if a game sits in beta (with minor hacked updates) for 8 years, at a certain point it's not a beta, it's just a game. So yes, I think it's a game on its own.

I think Beta 2 was accidentally enormously successful - I think fsk was just adding features and happened to release a game that had just the right amount of features that allowed it to be extremely versatile without becoming too bloated. Acceleration lines were probably unnecessary but they made fast tracks easier and more fun to make, and they made manuals a thing. Eraser, straight line tool, and zoom were essential for speeding up workflow. Slomo gave rise to quirk, and green lines gave rise to line art. Hotkeys made power users possible. So I think Beta 2 is the accidental standard for what made Line Rider a great art medium. I'm sure many have noticed that the vast majority of features I push for are to help people create the same things they have been creating in Beta 2, but more efficiently.

EDIT: decided to reach out to the free rider community and see if they have any interesting thoughts on how it shakes out, compared to mine.
http://community.freeriderhd.com/threads/thoughts-on-free-rider-from-a-longtime-line-rider-guy.5305/
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Post by rich Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:03 pm

What was your favorite contest from pre-09?
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Post by ScrungleBlumpkus Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:51 pm

Holy moly
Reading that huge post, rabid, really reminded me to have the right perspective on the community

Wow. High Notions 2 was a huge deal to me, and now it isn't that big a deal. It's crazy to think there was a time when I essentially called KW's work inadequate, too. I was really immature! Especially considering how little I care now compared to how much I did back then; Sheldon and I were actually discussing starting a new site because of how alienated we felt.

I get it now, though. I can take this away from that: If it's not something I see myself caring that much about a year from now, should I really say [heated thing]?
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Post by rabid squirrel Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:58 pm

rich wrote:What was your favorite contest from pre-09?
I don't have any actual records of contents from way back then, sadly. Also, strangely enough, there weren't as many contests back then that actually succeeded. Most of them had terrible organization.
However, here is a playlist that has at least some old contest winners from IRTL:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE743215E6DFCDAA0

My favorite pre-2009 contest that I remember was the Connected Line Contest (AKA Attached Line Contest), which Conundrumer had the idea for and I organized. Here's the video I made to explain the rules:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdJrfFlqrA
IIRC there were almost no entries, but one of the entries was Abstract Zero by Ktk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JdRdjipT58
Which later inspired Integration by anomaly. So the contest was origin point for integration, which I think is pretty cool.

Some other really great tracks that came out of contests are Gravity Wells by anomaly, Spring Fling by anomaly, and Cruise Control by Conundrumer.
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