They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by gaoyubao on Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:38 pm

what's strange is I got the message that quirk manages to represent a more chaotic world, while scenery makes more harmonious environments... just two different artistic expressions possible with Line Rider, neither being particularly better than the other.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by rabid squirrel on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:11 pm

@efrazable wrote:
@Conundrumer wrote:i feel like we don't deserve the last section of the song, or rather, my expectation was that the quirk and the scenery and the flow should have merged into something that makes sense, just like what happens in the music
Actually I had no idea you had a similar idea to mine. Essentially, I did this thing on my own, and I started it four or five months ago. It started out as a scenery project synced to "Sad Machine" that I really didn't like that much, so I moved on to this song, "Fellow Feeling".
This is literally what I have been struggling with in how to end EoLRS with for the last 2 years

http://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t3027p250-evolution-of-lr-scenery-version#158515
(I miss talking about scenery in the chat with CC Sad )

We'll get there someday, when my staff duties stop eating all my time and ghostY also has some time.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by roflmaoqwerty on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:26 pm

@efrazable wrote:(on the relationship between quirk and scenery) It wasn't a triumph. It was a compromise, and I also feel that the track choices reflect this

QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT

Thank you so much for not only this video but also your vision. I'll admit that I came into this kinda biased against what I perceived to be the reactionary attitude of sceners, though I know it's really not the case. That said, everything aside from my perceptions of the video in my earlier post still stands, and I owe it all to you that I was inspired enough to get my thoughts on the current state of our community's work down on paper... er, well, on forum.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by SPL4SHZ0N3 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:10 pm

So after a week of watching this, I'm being continuously, and increasingly, more amazed with each viewing. It's hard to say anything that hasn't been said already, but I do feel like saying something more...

While it's only my opinion, I think this is one of the most beautiful line rider videos ever made. Quite possibly the most beautiful and touching and heartfelt and complete... If you disagree with that however, it's hard to argue that this isn't the most imperative video for contemporary players to watch. Not only because of the important viewpoints brought up, but also because of how well they were executed and communicated. Again, amazing job.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by efrazable on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:18 pm

@SPL4SHZ0N3 wrote:So after a week of watching this, I'm being continuously, and increasingly, more amazed with each viewing [...] I think this is one of the most beautiful line rider videos ever made. Quite possibly the most beautiful and touching and heartfelt and complete... If you disagree with that however, it's hard to argue that this isn't the most imperative video for contemporary players to watch. Not only because of the important viewpoints brought up, but also because of how well they were executed and communicated. Again, amazing job.
I'd really like to thank the community for responses like this. It's amazing to think the video got this kind of response from people! Smile

I liked where the discussion was going with the talk of Line Rider's future, so I asked a few people with good thoughts on the video some questions about the potential of Line Rider and the community dynamic involved. Here I asked rofl, sheldon, chugs, rabid, and conun what their responses were to various questions, with a bold title up top in size 18 font.

Interview About Stuff

Why do you believe that there is more to Line Rider than we have done right now?
rofl wrote:I think there's more to Line Rider simply because the quest for discovering something new is what drives us to innovate and create as a community. If our forefathers didn't believe that there was unexplored territory, they simply would have given up and we wouldn't have Aspi's bringing quirk into the mainstream, Hedge's "vision of the future," and all the crazy shit that anyone's ever done. There may be nothing left to learn, but how do we know? I sure don't want to miss the chance to discover the next big thing and share it with everyone in the community to see what they do with it in their own unique way.
shell wrote:Sure I do man, there is always more we can do, I don't think there is a ton left to discover, say other than variations of what we already have.
chugs wrote:[i do], but all of the base ideas have been set in stone
rabid wrote:There's no limit to what new stuff can be done in line rider the same way there's no limit to what new stuff can be done with any other art form. Say, animation, or painting, or photography. People are always finding ways to do new things with those and they've been around for decades or centuries. The question that is more important, in my opinion, is, is it worth pursuing new ideas in the art medium, or would it be better to find (or make) a new medium? My answer to this has always been that I beleive Line Rider to be a medium that is utterly unique. Take line art, which is a totally unique (and difficult) way to make still art (but is also incredibly rewarding), and then add the element of motion, personified by the little guy on a sled, and you have the ability to create worlds.
conun wrote:I feel like it's self-evident when you see how we're having a creative surge right now. It's not so much about Line Rider as it is about the trackmakers who execute their ideas in Line Rider. LR is just a highly constrained animation tool, so there is more to what we can do than what we have done right now.
What was the last track to ever make you think "WOW" in all caps, and why?
rofl wrote:Though many tracks in the modern era have had a jaw-dropping impact on me (for a variety of reasons), I have to say that the most amazing track ever (ever.) is Cereal's "Phunner," simply because he did way more than anyone had ever done before on so many different levels all in one package. It set records in a sort of "ingenuity per frame," if you will, and really was the first example of a new brand of trackmaking that I'd like to see further explored.
shell wrote:Inhibitions, its just so baller, and that was before it's release. It was the hyper kramual.
chugs wrote:Catgroove, it had everything a fun track needs
rabid wrote:The most recent track was probably Supersonic Motion, with the synced drop and the kramual-animation ending. The drop rivals Edible for an epic music sync and then backs it up with a track that is really immersive and entertaining, even to the untrained eye, and then the ending is totally ingenious - the way the kramuals extended by green lines that make motion to the left/right irrelevant and all you see is an animation of the horizontal lines getting closer together.
conun wrote:Supersonic Motion. It was really cool to see Bosh move like that, and I just really like seeing synchronization/visualization to music.
"Happily Ever After" by CC and "Save the Princess" by Sssschiller can covey emotion, arguably without music. Can a bare track with no music be emotional?
rofl wrote:I think it's much harder for a bare track to convey emotion without music, but I also think that the comparison is sort of flawed. Scenery tracks do a great job of conveying a story, even without music, but this is because there are two elements at play: the bare track and the scenery. Some of the most emotive and powerful bare tracks (Wolf's "No One Dreams Anyway," HP's "Eden 2," and a lot of Kevans' stuff) are solid and enjoyable tracks on their own but really get their power from a close relationship to the music accompanying them, the second element present. I don't think a bare track alone can convey true emotion, but I think there are more ways than just scenery to accomplish this.
shell wrote:It can, but its less tangible and subjective. A disorderly track can leave someone confused, a really technical quirk can leave some people confused.
chugs wrote:It can, but only if you're clued in on it. No music for mood means anyone can see a track in any way
rabid wrote:With no music?
I hesitate to say "no" definitively, but nothing I've seen has come anywhere close to that without the aid of music, so if we can, it's far off. (Phantasmagoric Heart is the first track to suggest this may be possible, but it carries no emotional weight without the music, description, etc) I'm not counting emotions generated by it being someone's last track, or them pulling off a trick that has emotional resonance with them. I take "convey emotion" to exclude anything that you would need more information about the community, more information about the creator, or a ton of know-how about making advanced tracks in the game. "Convey emotion" to me implies convey emotion to a potential audience that is at least somewhat varied and sizeable. High Notions 2 may convey emotion to the best quirkers playing the game, well tempered manual may convey emotion to manualers, but neither of those would mean anything at all to anyone I know outside of the line rider community unless I explained it to them.
conun wrote:A track can convey emotion either through the music or its narrative. Multiple times, when I asked laymen (is that what we should call non-trackmakers?) about their favorite parts of watching Line Rider tracks, a recurring answer was when the track had a story. But tracks with narrative are usually scened tracks.
I haven't seen an example where a bare track had narrative. It gets abstract and difficult to connect to, especially as a layman.
There's a lot of talk about "the future" of Line Rider, but it's intangible to many. What innovations / concepts / etc. do you see employed beyond conventional trackmaking in the future?
rofl wrote:As far as I'm concerned, the era of ultra-technical trackmaking is over. To truly innovate nowadays, we can't focus on making a single well as strong as possible or integrating several complicated tricks; true progress today is likely going to be found in the bigger scheme of things. Part of the reason why "Phunner" was so legendary was that it had a greater vision; it didn't bother with complex tricks or other minutiae, but had a bigger overall vision and accomplished things that can't be easily classified or reduced to a formula. Universal ideas are the future of groundbreaking trackmaking in LR.
shell wrote:I have a few ideas, as well as new tricks that a few people already know about in some unreleased tracks. I also have some concepts that I think may work.. We'll see. I think green lines have a lot of potential. I can only speak for myself, but I think there is a bright future.
chugs wrote:Editing will make a comeback
rabid wrote:One big thing I see is highspeed animation being taken to the next level, which I'm very excited about. Another would be using green lines in what would otherwise be considered a "naked" track, for not just "gotcha" moments in color playback but for purely aethetic purposes. I'm hoping that one day someone will make a track and everyone will disagree on whether it is a scenery track or not. I also think it would be super cool to combine these two schools of thought and use green lines in highspeed animation that resemble track lines but greatly improve the aesthetic of the track. (I have a project planned for this but I won't be butthurt if others get there before me!)
conun wrote:
  1. Higher level organization in space and time/structural cohesion
  2. More refined music synchronization + music produced specifically for tracks
  3. The resolution of the scenery-quirk dichotomy
    1. less detail
    2. more emphasis on black vs white, solid areas and thick lines
    3. some sort of relation to the movement the quirk creates
    4. some way to incorporate the actual lines tastefully and not as an afterthought

  4. Narratives
  5. Conceptual tracks
  6. Nonlinear creation of tracks, spliced together through well-timed cuts (I don't think this is as important for the future, but it's at least worth experimenting with)
  7. Clever editing  Wink
  8. LineOnline  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    • Concurrent track editing
    • Fill tool
What track(s) inspire your vision of the future, and what about these tracks did you choose them for?
rofl wrote:Some of my hugest inspirations:
"Phunner" by Cereal: I've gone on about this for ages already, and I could still say more. There's never really been anything like this before or since, and while I may not be on the level of genius that enabled Cereal to make this masterpiece, I'm doing my best to incorporate fun things no one's tried before in LR.
"Incito" by Aspi: I-don't-know-how-many-years later, and this track is still incredible. Sure there's a lot of focus on "REVOLUTIONARY FLING!!1!1" in this track, but I can appreciate technical prowess and I also applaud this track for not only its timelessness but also its vision; Incito was Aspi's dare to take quirk in a new direction, and IMO we've been heading in that same direction for a long time now, too. We need another shakeup.
"this is LOVE" by gao: Oh my god I love Gao's shit so much, it's that perfect amount of off-the-wall that inspires creativity and technical ability at the same time. This track is proof that bare tracks can be emotional, inventive, unique, diverse, and so much more all in one. (Also I inadvertently dared him to make it 8D )
"Stickshift" by OTDE: This track is by far one of the most forgotten and underappreciated works in the history of LR. I told OTDE on Skype one time that this is one of my all time favorites and it even took him a second to remember what track I was talking about. This aside, this track represents a manualer's foray into quirk, a sort of diversification that resulted in the blossoming of a strange and wonderful style I've never quite seen since. It's a message for everyone to step outside of their comfort zone, because who knows what might happen?
shell wrote:Inhibitions, it holds the future of the kramual, which IMO has so much potential. Limitations, even tho the part that inspires me is mine, I don't think it necessarily is the future of xy but pushed the limits of what others did in xy. (inhibitions, eternity's xy)
Eden 3, and Joy of Motion for quirk, because Joy of Motion is just so beautiful and powerful, and Eden 3 because of the perfection shown.
chugs wrote:I don't like to look to the past for inspiration on what to make in the future, I feel like it hinders creative progression
rabid wrote:Happily Ever After - total unity of purpose between track and scenery. The track not only fits into the scenery, the scenery is built around the track. The two are inseperable.
Catgroove - next-level music syncing plus track-based animation and total fearlessness of insane speeds
Come to Daddy - track is built around creating an atmosphere, going against conventions, defying expectations
Well Tempered Manual - focus on the ingenuity of major sections of track as opposed to lots of individual moments, as well as extreme contrast between sections
Intro - starting with a piece of music that doesn't immediately sound like it will lend itself well to line rider to create something super unique
Wot - I hope people do more designing music to match the track in the future, even if it's not in as big of a way
conun wrote:Omniverse II. i am the progression  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
My vision for this track involved the first four concepts above, but it's not very useful to reference something that we can't see, so...

The Well-Tempered Manual is conceptual and has higher level organization.
Intro is also conceptual while being highly synchronized (though there's more room for refinement).
Phunner. Well, Rabid noted that I basically called Phunner the first postmodern track  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) , but while the concept of that track does fit into postmodernism, I feel like we still have the option of moving forward instead of making references that only people with experience understand (fun but inaccessible!).
But the big takeaway is that these tracks are very engaging because they effectively play with our expectations.
Does the future of Line Rider need to be accessible? Why or why not?
rofl wrote:I included this in my response to your video, but no, I don't think we as trackmakers should try to be "accessible" or decrease the complexity of our tracks on purpose in the attempt of reaching a wider audience. For me, the allure of Line Rider at the start was less of a "This is cool and I totally get what's going on" and more of a "Holy shit what just happened how do I do that I want to do that" feel. There is an intrigue in the incomprehensible that makes modern LR (like modern art) an interesting and compelling art form.
shell wrote:It will be when we get there, but then it will be the present.
chugs wrote:Yes, the biggest problem we have to newcomers imo is that it takes upwards of months to make a track
rabid wrote:Art is subjective so the future of Line Rider doesn't "need" to be anything. Buuuuut if our goals are getting more people to play line rider, and/or getting more people to watch line rider tracks even if they don't play the game themselves, then accessibility has to be a goal, or else fewer and fewer people will care.
conun wrote:It doesn't strictly need to be accessible, but if it's inaccessible, our community is most likely not going to grow in size and we may end up stagnating again. If it's accessible, we may generate new interest in Line Rider and bring in people with fresh perspectives.
Is the future of Line Rider fun?
rofl wrote:Though it's mostly out of my hands, I sincerely hope so. Line Rider is meant to be a toy, and while healthy competition and the spirit of one-upmanship can be positive forces, everyone should be doing what they want at the end of the day. The future of Line Rider is determined by its players, and for the most part I believe that people play LR to have fun, which is hopefully reflected in their tracks. I believe the idealized future of our community is one in which we demonstrate consistently that we can be skilled at what we do and still enjoy it above all.
@sheldon wrote:I think we will use or skills and instead of getting more technical, we will get more creative. So yeah I think so.
chugs wrote:hopefully
rabid wrote:If we ever manage to stop arguing over stupid things like differences in opinion, definitions, scales of measurement to judge what's "good", I don't see a reason it shouldn't be fun! Sadly, I'm getting less and less optomistic about us growing out of that stuff. I don't have any idea what can be done to solve it and the only change I've seen is people getting better at making everyone else pissed off.
conun wrote:

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by rabid squirrel on Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:37 am

Thanks for doing the interviews efraz, it was so cool to respond to things and then read others' responses to it (lol @ how similar conun's and my responses were and how reference each other all the time) but it was super cool to see differing perspectives on these issues from others who have different philosophies of trackmaking.

also I'm happy about anything that bumps this thread

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by theacp127 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:21 pm

I missed this when you posted it, and I'm so glad I found it. The music syncing was great and the song choice was really good as well. You did a great job creating a certain feeling and energy. I loved how you matched the rotation of Bosh between each cut to create that smooth transition.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:04 pm

I missed the interview D: I'mma go respond!!!

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Wizzy on Thu May 21, 2015 9:21 pm

I wasn't credited for Fatality (2:43)

but ya super cool gj.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by rabid squirrel on Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:16 am

bump

TechDawg apparently saw this from my facebook message and commented!
Two thumbs up! Thanks Ben for making me aware of this, I thoroughly enjoyed it! Ahhh the memories Smile

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:24 am

HOLY BUMP

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Z_N-Freak on Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:26 am

Well worth the bump, I just read efraz post with the interview (hadn't seen it before). Cool stuff. Nice to see people's opinion's on these questions (very good questions btw!)

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by efrazable on Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:35 pm

@rabid squirrel wrote:bump

TechDawg apparently saw this from my facebook message and commented!
Two thumbs up! Thanks Ben for making me aware of this, I thoroughly enjoyed it!  Ahhh the memories Smile
Yeah OTDE showed me this and I was really honored by it. :3
@Z_N-Freak wrote:Well worth the bump, I just read efraz post with the interview (hadn't seen it before). Cool stuff. Nice to see people's opinion's on these questions (very good questions btw!)
Thanks, but I think they were only good questions because of the great answers that were given for them, so thanks to everyone who answered!

Also I PM'd a couple of people who didn't get a chance to answer the interview in time, and they both wanted to have their responses posted. Now that there's a bump, I'll post them soon, so I asked a few extra people to make the second round of interview questions longer.

Will post later tonight/tomorrow.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by efrazable on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:12 am

K INTERVIEW ROUND 2!!!

Why do you believe that there is more to Line Rider than we have done right now?
opal wrote:I believe that there is more to Line Rider because the only limitation to the game is what you push on yourself. Even keeping within the boundaries of the game can be a limitation, and we've only just broken through that idea by including music sync, but there are so many other ways we can include outside elements inside of the game, we just haven't done it yet.
luk wrote:Because of the nature of this type of toy. The will always be more to explore and im very excited of whats to come in the future !
dap wrote:Because Line Rider is about as blank a canvas as a blank staff of sheet music. We have only one mode of interaction: Lines. However, we can do so much WITH those lines that we likely haven't even considered yet. The same is true for music. We have only one mode of interaction: Sound. But there is so much we don't know about sound and haven't explored yet. I compare the two constantly in my playing. Often, music is formulaic: Take a sound everybody is familiar with, and tie it together with another one in such and such an order and BAM MUSIC. The same is true for Line Rider: Take a certain fling and tie it to a manual we've all seen before at just the right time in music, and BAM something new has happened.
There is also the concept of cinematic presentation in Line Rider that we haven't explored recently. So much is possible with video editing and the like that we haven't even considered yet. WOT was a good example, They Ride The Lines is another, and Chugger's career track, etc. We have barely begun to sink our feet into the world or Line Rider.
@otde wrote:Line Rider, at its core, is, like all art, a tool for communicating ideas, concepts, and stories. As the community gets better at speaking the language, we'll have access to more and more opportunities to create and share in new ways. I think this video does something really neat, in relation to this idea-- it puts forward the notion that quirk, is only one of the many things we can explore further, and that the specification hurts our ability to communicate ideas. A diverse community, united under a single interest, allows everyone to bring out new concepts.
What was the last track to ever make you think "WOW" in all caps, and why?
opal wrote:I usually don't think in all caps, but if there were any track to fit the description it would probably be Retrograde. The infinite recycle edit hadn't been revisited since Bogden released his one hit wonder, and he did it so well.
luk wrote:Funspiration because it basically introduces a new mechanic (a very entertaning one) and i think that it has widened the potential for us extremely.
dap wrote:Awh, crap, see...so many tracks do that to me in so many different ways. I guess, in the most general and generic way I can think of, the last track that really made me think "WOW" en le capsicles, was Mt. Olxympus. It was technically on fleek, and directly inspired by something I did. It made me realize that even the concepts we've already well explored can be taken to incredible extremes once we see "how it's done" and turned into sheer beauty. However, OTDE and splsh (I'm lookin' at you, Changeling) and even Lukking recently (in a track he has yet to release) have made me go "WOW" for different reasons.
We have so much exploration of style to do, that I go WOW every time a track is released because there's always something new.
@otde wrote:I think Funspiration was one of the biggest "wow" tracks for me in recent memory, and it was because it introduced something NEW-- integrated animation. That really threw me for a loop on the first watch, to the point where I actually dropped my jaw out of real reflex. And it really, truly has been a game-changer in the community, because it's new to us like gravity wells were to the 2007 denizens of IRTL. I also think that, like quirk, we will find ways to familiarize ourselves with animation to the point where a fling and a short animation are on the same level of difficulty. I just hope animation doesn't ever get stale like I've seen happen to some of the less-finely-aged quirks out there.
"Happily Ever After" by CC and "Save the Princess" by Sssschiller can covey emotion, arguably without music. Can a bare track with no music be emotional?
opal wrote:Yes. But only to the trackmaker. Editing is more or less a window into the soul; his way of saying "Hey guys, this is what was going on through my mind as I was making this!" and he plans accordingly.
luk wrote:Yes. There are so many styles wich convey certain emotions or feelings at least.
dap wrote:Fuck yeah it can! Watch my tracks without music, you'll see. There's more angst there than you all realize.
Also, Kramwood has the most emotional bare tracks because it looks like tears and blood were shed to draw those lines and the shapes are aesthetically moving. Gaoyubao even has some emotional tracks.
@otde wrote:Oh hell yes. A great example of this is, strangely enough, Kramwood. I would say the way Bosh struggles in the early parts of Phantasmagoric Heart is so accurate to the message about depression that he was trying to depict that it just breaks my heart every time I watch it. Like I said up above, you can communicate ideas with any style-- it's just how effectively you do so that's important.
There's a lot of talk about "the future" of Line Rider, but it's intangible to many. What innovations / concepts / etc. do you see employed beyond conventional trackmaking in the future?
opal wrote:This question goes hand in hand with the first one you asked me. We never see media outside of line rider and music being implemented into the track. This can be shown in extra attention to editing, such as Phunner, or even frame by frame animation like Shadowninja's Switch. The ideas are out there people, you just need to reach for them.
luk wrote:Definately animations and minimalistic scenery. I dont think there are many new things to explore in trackmaking other than creating certain feelings by paying more attention to the macroscopic layer.
dap wrote:First of all, Kramuals need to be fucking exploited already.
Second, can somebody else please start making cannons besides the four people who already have released tracks with them?
Third, XY flings is a thing (and I believe we should explore XY more because it has potential for displaying creativity in an even more limited environment. Non XY lines have a way of feeling...too precise. Too easy to criticize, I believe. Open your minds, damn you all!)
@otde wrote:Well, we've seen animation break new ground already. As we get further familiarized with syncs, I can see some unconventional tracks coming out through that vein. I like seeing people subvert the idea of "manual" and "fling" with nontraditional line usage, too.

One thing that also has piqued my interest lately is the discussions I've had with people about the camera, and focusing on the track as the main element in the Line Rider video and not necessarily what Bosh himself DOES on the track. It's all very exciting and makes me happy to be along for the ride.
What track(s) inspire your vision of the future, and what about these tracks did you choose them for?
opal wrote:I keep accidentally answering questions in the question above, but if I were to choose a few extra, Jam for starting the music sync craze, as well as Devray's Choose your own Adventure and the end credits to PANIC courtesy of OTDE.
luk wrote:Marble soda (minimalistic but genius animation)
Intergation (introduced a new concept)
Funspiration (same reason)
The well-tempered manual (is truly outside the box)
Breathtaking silence (combination of dedication and talent)
Inhibitions (there is more to kramuals than we know)
dap wrote:A little sumthin'sumthin' that Lukking has not released yet.
The concept of carrying on as the horse did in Mazeppa by Liszt (look it up) is being displayed by a certain former community member whose track has inspired my vision as well.
Never giving up on things is something that is important to me, something I think is what CREATES the future, so it may be weird, but I want to mention Changeling (ofc) because it makes an incredible jump forward in to what I am doing with XY being tangible. It really softened up the community to what I do and the crowd is starting to wake up to what I believe is the direction we should be/are taking in Line Rider. It's like a medium between the future and the present. I encourage more people to study tracks in slow motion (specifically, that of mine, Sheldon, and Kramwood's) to see what I mean (I sound arrogant but oh well).
Mt. Olxympus. 'Nuff said.
Aria by OTDE, because it clearly is inspired by a track already done in that fashion but taken to a refined extreme (which is THE future of Line Rider)
@otde wrote:Funspiration, for reasons I've already stated.
A lot of shua's stuff has been getting me awfully inspired lately. It's weird, genre-defying stuff, and it breaks the rules so hard you forgot the rule existed to begin with.
I really want to see where Anton's style goes. He's able to do a lot of things right now, and I definitely hope to see further development there Wink
Does the future of Line Rider need to be accessible? Why or why not?
opal wrote:The future of line rider will happen whether it's the future I'm describing or not, but no, I don't think that anything needs to happen one way or another. This is just a direction that I would like to see Line Rider move, and I will be moving towards, even if other people choose to make their tracks in a different manner. It wouldn't be fair to say that my version of creativity is any better or worse than anyone else's.
luk wrote:Not necessarily because there will always be someone who comes up with new ideas or concepts no matter how accessible it is.
dap wrote:Yup! and I have Changeling to thank for the fact that it will be. It opens us up because it's not so much that we can't process, but still moves our heads into preparation. Like Rachmaninoff spent the whole first half of his second piano sonata just harmonically preparing people for the second movement and the incredible Finale.
If it weren't accessible, we'd basically open the door to a whole new world, get scared, crawl into a hole of dissention, and then the community would die.
@otde wrote:Not only does it need to, but our survival as a community depends on it. Accessibility comes from executing ideas well. Look at the notable tracks throughout Line Rider's history. The best ones have a clear idea of what they want to say and say it loud and proud, whether it was mind-boggling scenery or game-breaking quirk.

The problem is that sometimes some quirkers hide behind the idea that a quirk is "incomprehensible" as a way of explaining poor reviews on a quirk. Look, people can appreciate quirk. It's a fantastic genre when done right. Those last three words-- "when done right"-- are tricky buggers. I'm not talking about fling speed or power or technicality, because a quirk can flawlessly execute those and still not be "done right." It's not that the track is inaccessible, it's that you, as the artist, have failed to strike a chord in the viewer's heart.

That's why people like quirks like Lilac Wine-- they build tension, build mental images in the viewer's head. When I see that flanual-airtime-manual moment, I always imagine that Bosh is a Kayaker falling down a massive waterfall. It's visceral, and it feels RIGHT. Lilac Wine tells a wordless story, and that's why so many people voted for it in that poll I just made.

Tell stories. Make the viewer FEEL something. Use your vocabulary of flings and manuals to show people something cool. Or have fun. Or do both. But DON'T toil away miserably on something that doesn't have a clear idea of what it wants to be, while making yourself miserable in the process. I mean, you can, but I would worry about you. Don't make Papa OTDE sad. I would be very Come To Saddy.

That was terrible, I'm sorry. :P
Is the future of Line Rider fun?
opal wrote:Oh lawd I hope so. If not for anyone else, it will be fun for me, and I do expect it to be fun for everyone else as well, otherwise they'd probably stop playing.
luk wrote:Yes.
dap wrote:
@otde wrote:The future is what we make of it. We'll have fun if we make room for it. Smile


Last edited by efrazable on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:19 am

I feel like my answers are so spur of the moment. But truly, I tried to be practical

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by rabid squirrel on Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:11 pm

did lukking and otde say the exact same thing for question 2? lol

@efrazable wrote:"Happily Ever After" by CC and "Save the Princess" by Sssschiller can covey emotion, arguably without music. Can a bare track with no music be emotional?
opal wrote:Yes. But only to the trackmaker. Editing is more or less a window into the soul; his way of saying "Hey guys, this is what was going on through my mind as I was making this!" and he plans accordingly.
luk wrote:Yes. There are so many styles wich convey certain emotions or feelings at least.
dap wrote:Fuck yeah it can! Watch my tracks without music, you'll see. There's more angst there than you all realize.
Also, Kramwood has the most emotional bare tracks because it looks like tears and blood were shed to draw those lines and the shapes are aesthetically moving. Gaoyubao even has some emotional tracks.
@otde wrote:Oh hell yes. A great example of this is, strangely enough, Kramwood. I would say the way Bosh struggles in the early parts of Phantasmagoric Heart is so accurate to the message about depression that he was trying to depict that it just breaks my heart every time I watch it. Like I said up above, you can communicate ideas with any style-- it's just how effectively you do so that's important.
I was surprised to see all the Yesses here after my batch of interviews struggled to say either yes or no.

I still feel the same way... I have yet to see an example of a bare track without music that can intentionally convey emotion to anyone who has not already invested hundreds of hours into this game. Crazy quirk tracks are really just confusing/boring to non-LR people without music/description, and IMO nobody would realize the message of Phantasmagoric Heart without the music, title, description, and ending scenery.
@efrazable wrote:
luk wrote:Definately animations and minimalistic scenery. I dont think there are many new things to explore in trackmaking other than creating certain feelings by paying more attention to the macroscopic layer.
dap wrote:First of all, Kramuals need to be fucking exploited already.
Second, can somebody else please start making cannons besides the four people who already have released tracks with them?
Third, XY flings is a thing (and I believe we should explore XY more because it has potential for displaying creativity in an even more limited environment. Non XY lines have a way of feeling...too precise. Too easy to criticize, I believe. Open your minds, damn you all!)
The contrast here is just great xD
@otde wrote:The problem is that sometimes some quirkers hide behind the idea that a quirk is "incomprehensible" as a way of explaining poor reviews on a quirk. Look, people can appreciate quirk. It's a fantastic genre when done right. Those last three words-- "when done right"-- are tricky buggers. I'm not talking about fling speed or power or technicality, because a quirk can flawlessly execute those and still not be "done right." It's not that the track is inaccessible, it's that you, as the artist, have failed to strike a chord in the viewer's heart.

That's why people like quirks like Lilac Wine-- they build tension, build mental images in the viewer's head. When I see that flanual-airtime-manual moment, I always imagine that Bosh is a Kayaker falling down a massive waterfall. It's visceral, and it feels RIGHT. Lilac Wine tells a wordless story, and that's why so many people voted for it in that poll I just made.

Tell stories. Make the viewer FEEL something. Use your vocabulary of flings and manuals to show people something cool. Or have fun. Or do both. But DON'T toil away miserably on something that doesn't have a clear idea of what it wants to be, while making yourself miserable in the process.
THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. Thank you for putting this into words.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:49 pm

OTDE, you have opened my eyes once again to how much more I have to learn

I'm gonna go ahead and study Cereal's quirk now because everybody seems to love it for some reason

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by efrazable on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:14 pm

@rabid fixing now I messed up. They both chose Funspiration so idk I got mixed up 8D

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by rabid squirrel on Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:16 pm

conversation we just had in skype chat
[8/14/15, 3:39:14 PM] Ben Harvey: I have a challenge for everyone. Well sorta. Watch this track, but mute it and skip to 45 seconds in to skip the intro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-qnpsw_9Bg
[8/14/15, 3:45:36 PM] Opal Rider: I'm sort of confused as to why OTDE chose that track as an example as well, especially since the track was known for its prominent music sync usage; a surefire way to say that the best way to convey emotion is, in fact, though editing.
[8/14/15, 3:56:05 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: Wow, I think that actually portrays emotion in some way
[8/14/15, 3:56:21 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: even without the music
[8/14/15, 3:57:11 PM] Opal Rider: In a way it did for me as well, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that I was singing the song to myself as the track went on.
[8/14/15, 3:57:29 PM] Opal Rider: Which makes it difficult for me to stay unbiased.
[8/14/15, 3:57:45 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: I actually don't remember the song
[8/14/15, 3:58:37 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: but somehow feel that in the beginning bosh is sort of swaying, then gets tumbling, disoriented and goes crazy. Then he sort of calms down and in the end he's flying up
[8/14/15, 3:59:55 PM] Ben Harvey: interesting how it conveyed emotion but it's totally different than the intended meaning with music lol
[8/14/15, 4:00:34 PM] Opal Rider: Not quite.
[8/14/15, 4:01:00 PM] Opal Rider: I feel like the emotion conveyed with the music is that of overcoming depression, not just depression itself.
[8/14/15, 4:01:15 PM] Opal Rider: The upwards soaring at the end would fit right in with that.
[8/14/15, 4:01:44 PM] Ben Harvey: I think "disorganized, goes crazy" is not at all what he was trying to convey
[8/14/15, 4:02:25 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: yeah, it's like at first everything is fine and okay, then you start feeling pain and problems, then you get the news of the disease, become angry and crazy. Then you have acceptance and fly up to the air
[8/14/15, 4:02:27 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: something like that
[8/14/15, 4:02:46 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: but I did know about the intended emotions, so probably I'm still biased
[8/14/15, 4:03:16 PM] Opal Rider: Maybe a better way to go about this would be to send the track to someone who's never seen it before?
[8/14/15, 4:03:39 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: would need to be without the intro
[8/14/15, 4:03:56 PM] Opal Rider: Yeah, that'll be easy enough to moderate if you're in the same room.
[8/14/15, 4:04:07 PM] Ben Harvey: I'm pretty sure the intended meaning was starting in a place of depression, and slowly moving out of it...
[8/14/15, 4:04:25 PM] Ben Harvey: what znf just describes is totally different
[8/14/15, 4:04:55 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: hmm, yeah. I don't see the beginning as being depressed.
[8/14/15, 4:05:21 PM] Opal Rider: What about with the music unmuted?
[8/14/15, 4:06:02 PM] Opal Rider: If it still doesn't feel depressed, then it would just be your interpretation, and there's little to nothing we would be able to say otherwise.
[8/14/15, 4:06:37 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: hmm, with the music I could get that from it, but for me the fact that he goes higher in the end then he started, seems not like depression.
[8/14/15, 4:07:10 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: and then he falls and speeds up and everything
[8/14/15, 4:07:37 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: I'd convey depression differently
[8/14/15, 4:07:58 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: but interesting concept actually. Conveying emotions without music
[8/14/15, 4:08:11 PM] Ben Harvey: this is like, a perfect illustration of how I think that phantasmagoric heart suggested that it might be possible to convey emotion without music... but it hasn't been done effectively yet
[8/14/15, 4:09:35 PM] Zeno van Ditzhuijzen: yeah, maybe. I think it's a very hard thing to do.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Conundrumer on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:53 pm

Similar to the others in that chat, I already watched the track so I remembered the vibes while muted. Anyways, it might also be helpful to research other forms of abstract art (eg contemporary dance) and see how they communicate emotions, ideas, and meaning.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by GhostY on Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:26 am

@Conundrumer wrote:Similar to the others in that chat, I already watched the track so I remembered the vibes while muted. Anyways, it might also be helpful to research other forms of abstract art (eg contemporary dance) and see how they communicate emotions, ideas, and meaning.

i played in a pit band for a ballet, of course i never got to see what the hell was going on to the music i was playing, but once we got to watch a recording of it later on its crazy how different it is from what i pictured. i think this is actually a really good outlet if you're looking for inspiration. Because although some parts of the dancing was kind of weird, it still gives you that "right" feeling as OTDE was explaining. I get this a lot with some of my compositions, i'll spend 2 weeks on 4 measures trying to get a transition. I usually try to do the "right" way and use music theory, however the way that always gets me out of the slump is when i convey an emotion rather than theory. the most important thing to take away from this is to NOT DOUBT YOURSELF, if it sounds (in linerider reference: looks) good and feels right. keep it. end of story. you will NEVER make progress if you keep on questioning it.

The wake up call i kind of had was when i would play songs i wrote on guitar to my friends/family. i would play a song that i was working on and still didn't have all the parts quite right and i felt embarrassed all the way to the last note, then i look up and they're like "wow that was amazing" it just made me realize that not everything will be perfect to you, no matter what you make it will never feel perfect. however to someone else it can sound/look perfect. Just knowing that makes me want to continue what i do.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:34 am

Ghosty, I love you

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Fauxfyre on Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:55 pm

I feel honored to have 1 second in this video, even though I wasn't credited in the end, although I didn't really like the message you were trying to convey :/ I guess it makes sense to the typical viewer, but labeling quirk as "ugly" idk I just didn't really like the message for long time viewers.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Rafael on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:20 am

Just watched this again. Tis still awesome and true.

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Re: They Ride the Lines - A Reflection

Post by Lukking on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:33 am

@Rafael wrote:Just watched this again. Tis still awesome and true.

Best track ever imo

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You were right.
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