Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

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Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Fauxfyre on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:36 pm

My knowledge I have gained from working on my own LR build as led me to learn several things about how quirk works. Here are some things that most people just take as a fact of life, explained in detail. (Note that to understand most of what I'm talking about, it helps to make sure you read every section)

1) How do gwells pull Bosh?
This is due to the fact that any time a contact point is on the colored side of a line, the game wants to put that contact point directly on top of the line (I refer to this as collision). So, a gwell is usually made by a single contact point being in range, while the rest of them don't get affected because they are either not directly below a colored end, or are too far away. This also is the reason Bosh doesn't fall through manuals. Keep in mind that the distance from a line isn't the only deciding factor in collision, the direction the point is moving is taken into account too. This makes it so Bosh can pass one way, but not the other.

2) Why does Bosh sometimes go straight through lines at high speeds?
Every frame, each contact point is moved once based on its individual velocity, before the collision is determined. Think of it more of teleportation rather than movement. This is also the time when gravity is added to a point. As mentioned, this happens before any collision calculations, so if every point goes beyond the range that the line will affect them, nothing will happen. So, Bosh isn't really moving through them, he's moving from one specific spot to another beyond the line.

3) What exactly happens during a frame?
When a contact is moved to the top of a line as described in #1, the distance that the point has to move is added to the velocity of that contact point. This happens once. After that, the game will check each connection between contact points (referred to as edges), and if the distance between them isn't equal to the starting values, they are moved closer or further apart until they are the same as they were when the game started. Then collision happens. The distance checking and collision calculations happen 6 times one after the other. After that, the frame is drawn as you see in the game.

4) Why do flings speed Bosh up?
During distance checking and collision, Bosh's velocity is altered depending on the distances the points are moved during these times. So, in an every other frame fling, you have two scenarios:

  1. When the frame involves line collision, first, distance checking happens, which will usually do nothing because the frame before it when there was no collision already fixed the distances. Then, the velocity to a point is increased because the contact point must be pulled to where the line is during collision. After the loop goes back to distance checking, that contact point is now farther away from the sled than it should be, so that point is moved back closer to the others. Remember that each point on an edge is adjusted an equal amount, so every other point is also moved closer to the point that is out of position. Now, when we get back to the second collision check, that point is still within range of the line, so it gets pulled again. As previously mentioned before, this process happens 6 times, so during a single "pull", there are typically 6 pulls. This is what increases the speed, along with the fact that during the distance adjustment, some velocity is added and subtracted (typically more is added in this case).
  2. The second scenario is when there is no collision in a frame, which would be the space in-between lines in a fling. Since collision is done last in a frame, now that we're moving onto the next frame, the contact points are out of position. That all is fixed in this frame, which will get Bosh as close to his initial position as it can. Usually this gets pretty close, but due to the number of edges to do that all affect each other in some way, it is never 100% the same as the starting position once the first line affects the first point.

Now, once the non-colliding frame and the colliding frame gets as best as it can to getting Bosh back to normal, all the points will be further away from the line again, allowing the point to get that first large pull mentioned in the first scenario. All the miniscule velocity additions really add up.

5) Why are flings easier to continue once you have a few lines in them?
Keep in mind the points are moved the one time per frame. At this time, the direction each point is moving is calculated. Remember how the direction is taken into account when collision is checked? Because the game hasn't 100% finished getting each point in perfect position, there are still miniscule movements where the current contact point is being pulled closer to Bosh. So, these miniscule calculations think the point is still moving away from the line, and will be more apt to pull it back towards the fling.

6) Why do chains slow Bosh down?
Since collision is checked last before movement happens, the contact points are out of alignment when they reach the next frame. This means when he reaches the next frame in the chain, the contact point is already pretty close to the line that's going to affect it. This results in weaker pulls, and most of the position adjustments just get Bosh closer to the line anyways. This is why lines in a chain need to be consecutively further away from Bosh to prevent them from being weak, otherwise you would get to a point where there is zero distance to adjust anything in a frame.

7) Why don't super stacks kill Bosh?
Due to the fact that so many lines are pulling Bosh in the same direction, not that much distance checking happens. During distance checking, if some points are too far out of adjustment, that's what causing Bosh to crash / fall of the sled. The fact that the super stack keeps most of the points moving the same way, they usually won't be too far apart that it will cause Bosh to crash.

8) Why do "squishies" (when a line above Bosh squishes his shoulder, 2nd peg, and sometimes hands into the line) speed him up when he moves anywhere from 8 to 1 on a clock going clockwise, but not in any other usage?
First of all, other directions and usages are usable to speed Bosh up as seen here and here. Secondly, in all 3 examples, the shoulder isn't being pulled, it is being moved back towards the sled, allowing it to get closer to all the points it is connected with (there are the hands and butt, but also invisible edges connecting to 2nd peg and the feet). This allows for more pressure to be added to it, thus having more velocity added once it tries to correct its position. Remember that edges don't just try to move back into position if they are too far apart, but also if they are too close together. Most of the shoulder edges are checked after the others, with the 2nd peg + shoulder edge being far down the list (#16). This allows all the other edges to stretch out the distances when they try to correct themselves first, making the distances the shoulder needs to correct even greater.
While I'm on this topic, I should mention that the distances that an edge can withstand increase depending on the initial distance between an edge at the start of the track. This is why nose wells can usually be pulled much farther than other points, because of the long distances from the other points on the sled it is connected to (2nd peg and tail notably, but it is also connected to the spidey, the butt, and the feet).

9) Why do alt flings and ASDFs speed Bosh up if they affect his every frame like a chain does?
Alt flings follow the logic that I mentioned during collision that the distances that the point has to travel to get to a line affect how much speed is added to it. So, even though they are every frame, they still require the contact point in question to travel a relatively large distance to reach its destination. That is also why alt flings are stronger when the lines on each side are farther apart, rather than close together.
ASDFs just involve two contact points being handled separately each frame, so one is allowed to correct itself while the other is pulled, so the next frame it can be pulled farther like it would in an every frame fling.

10) So how do non-contact wells still affect Bosh?
At some point during the 6 corrections and collisions in the loop, the contact point will be moved during distance correction far enough away that it will no longer be affected by collision. That first collision still happens, but once the other collision checks aren't affecting that point anymore, it will go back closer to Bosh (though some part will still look out of position). Then the frame is drawn after that, so it just appears that Bosh is being affected without touching the line. He actually did touch the line, it's just by the end of the frame, he wasn't anymore. This is also why those wells are weaker, because he doesn't get the full 6 pulls he normally would. Just for additional clarification, tail and nose wells don't usually count as "non-contact". It just doesn't look like the point is touching the line because the sled's graphics are drawn at the 2nd peg, so if another point on the sled is moved, the graphics don't get affected as dramatically as other points can.

11) So what's the deal with fakie position?
Fakie is caused due to a bug with the connections between the feet and the nose. These edges are different than the others because these are checked very last, and because of something that I haven't completely figured out yet (they are the only "repel" edges, while the rest are either just a regular edge, or a "bind" edge which causes him to crash if moved too far apart). So if the feet are moved up away from the nose, the nose + foot edges will try to correct this by moving the nose closer to them. This happens twice, because each foot does it once. This is enough to cause the nose to get stuck in an unusual spot. The game doesn't try too hard to correct the differences between the other points now, because they are close enough to their original distances, along with the fact that changes just to the edges on the sled never cause Bosh to crash or fall off (because they are regular edges, not bind edges). So, the game tries to lazily correct this because there isn't too far of distances to correct. The fact that the points never go back to their original position is what causes Bosh to constantly spin, because it is constantly trying to correct it, but never fully does.


Any other questions? Need clarification? Speak now!


Last edited by Shotoku on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by efrazable on Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:22 am

So here's a couple

1. Flings speed bosh up. Chains slow him. If bosh is having a contact point effected every frame, not every other, then why do alts and asdfs and all that speed him up?

2. "Squishies" (or when bosh has a line above him that squishes his shoulder, 2nd peg, and sometimes hands into the line) speed him up when he moves anywhere from 8 to 1 on a clock going clockwise, but not in any other usage. Why dat?

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Fauxfyre on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:27 pm

@efrazable wrote:So here's a couple

1. Flings speed bosh up. Chains slow him. If bosh is having a contact point effected every frame, not every other, then why do alts and asdfs and all that speed him up?

2. "Squishies" (or when bosh has a line above him that squishes his shoulder, 2nd peg, and sometimes hands into the line) speed him up when he moves anywhere from 8 to 1 on a clock going clockwise, but not in any other usage. Why dat?
Added answers 8 & 9, along with some details on non-contact points and fakie position.

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:34 pm

Why do we see things like the string randomly flying off when there's a 2nd peg or he flips entirely over during a Kramual pull? Is there a way we could see each contact point and its connections?

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Chuggers on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:01 pm

I propose a super thread about all line rider information

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:39 pm

They calls those wikis. But I do propose a place where information on ALL types of linerider information is contained and some kind of system for identifying and classifying different types of gwells with information about the physics involved.
We should just have an epic website where we have all dah history and stuffs and glithces and tricks in ze lrs

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Fauxfyre on Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:02 pm

Dapianokid wrote:Why do we see things like the string randomly flying off when there's a 2nd peg or he flips entirely over during a Kramual pull? Is there a way we could see each contact point and its connections?
I don't exactly understand the first question, but the second one has to do with the order contact points are in on a kramual. Each body part of Bosh is tied to a specific contact point, and then the direction of them is aligned to a second one. The body sprite is tied to the butt, then aligned to the shoulder. I'm not 100% sure about kramual physics yet, but something in a kramual pull causes the butt to be pulled closer to the front of the sled than the shoulder. Even the tiniest amount will make him look like he's flipped upside down.

For the first question, I'm going to assume that you're talking about why the string sticks out of the front of the sled during a 2nd peg pull. As I mentioned in an earlier question, the sled is drawn at the 2nd peg spot, but it is also aligned to the spidey/string point. The string between Bosh's hands and the front of the sled are just normal line segments. So, if the edge between the 2nd peg and the spidey point gets stretched, then the sled will be pulled back to the 2nd peg, but the line segment of the string will still connect to where it know the spidey contact point actually is (since it's now a further length away than where the front of the sled looks like it is)

If you want to see every edge, you can ask Kevans to make a quick screeshot of that in Flash. Once I get to the point where I can enable zooming on LRMM, I'll post that for you if he hasn't already. Don't expect too much, it just looks like a big Bosh-sized web.
If you want to know the details of contact points and edges, I have a screen capture of early code of mine where it shows all the connections between the contact points.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/1c15l3c8cc2f741/bosh_points_snippet.txt
One of the edges in there is an accidental duplicate I made at the time, and the indentation means nothing, another accident. The newstartingpos values are the same as the pos[#] values, and they start at 0 (with 2nd peg) and end at 9 (with a foot point). The "bind" comment means that once Bosh dies, that edge goes away, which lets Bosh fall off the sled.

I'll update the OP with this information in a bit

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by rabid squirrel on Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:54 am

This is really awesome. Not sure I totally understand flings vs chains, but now I finally understand what non contact means.
Dapianokid wrote:They calls those wikis. But I do propose a place where information on ALL types of linerider information is contained and some kind of system for identifying and classifying different types of gwells with information about the physics involved.
We should just have an epic website where we have all dah history and stuffs and glithces and tricks in ze lrs
thinking about a section of some sort

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:43 pm

hey, question, oh LR gods:
What the heck is up with the NaN ppf and glitches surrounding that? Why is it suddenly not a number, what happens to the camera, and is it possible in your minds to bring Bosh back with a similar glitch line (as he often does not die when you do this, just try using the flag.)?

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Chuggers on Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:47 pm

Dapianokid wrote:hey, question, oh LR gods:
is it possible in your minds to bring Bosh back with a similar glitch line (as he often does not die when you do this, just try using the flag.)?

no

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:32 pm

What's a vibrating track?

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by GhostY on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:38 pm

Dapianokid wrote:What's a vibrating track?

thats a question you ask your parent or legal guardian son

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by RyderLR on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:55 pm

^Funniest comment I think I've seen on WRTL

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:22 pm

@GhostY wrote:
Dapianokid wrote:What's a vibrating track?

thats a question you ask your parent or legal guardian son

You have surpassed Darkness in humor.

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by Opal Rider on Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:53 am

I remember those now. Honestly when you first mentioned it I was thinking something along the lines of that flanual in Cirrus.

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by rabid squirrel on Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:53 pm

there's a bit about vibrating tracks and how you make them in the glitches and easter eggs sticky

http://iridethelines.forumotion.com/t1684-full-list-of-easter-eggs-and-glitches-in-line-rider

includes a download link to a .sol of a vibrating track I made

as for the original dapianokid question, I don't know the specifics of it but I believe it's a physics engine / math glitch so kevans will probably know what actually is happening. All I know is that things line up in such a way that infinity gets involved and that's why you don't see bosh because he just broke through the light speed barrier. or whatever.

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Re: Shotoku explains the quirks about quirk

Post by ScrungleBlumpkus on Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:20 pm

I'm pretty sure it's a divison by zero having to do with contact point velocities. It's possible to make him disappear without the transport X line at the start or a Kramual, but it requires a super stack which affects all contact points.

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